Ray

Neo,

That is the problem.

One is talking from a flat map. Even a 3D map cannot give the true perspective.

The heights are up to 21,000 ft. Anything above 9000 ft is considered as High Altitude. The rarified atmosphere makes breathing very difficult. Under normal conditions, people have to undergo a minimum of three stage acclimatization.

There are no animal tracks. The spines are jagged and when covered with snow, the exact alignment cannot be discerned since the snow is very deep. Any false step and you go down 10,000 ft bouncing like a rock. If you can thereafter be recognized then you are lucky. Of course, you shall be dead. Also note, the movement on the spine is not falt. It involves climb and descent. Therefore, imagine moving in rarified atmosphere, breathing heavily and checking every step with a stick! It is tiresome and apart from being very time consuming.

Now check the distance that has to be traversed to each of the positions the Pakistanis had occupied. Imagine how long it would have taken to be there. Also note, the winds are not balmy, they are chilly and howling. You have to struggle against it.

A man with basic equipment (depending on how kitted) would be anything between 15 to 20 kgs if not more. Those carrying heavier weapons would be worse off.

What about the logistic back up? Imagine the rations, ammunitions and medicines and also water (at those heights there is no water) has to also accompany the soldiers, in addition to what they are carrying. Now imagine how much has to be brought up if the stay is to be about 4 months. Add to it the ammunition required to beat back an attack, and there would be more than one attack to beat back.

What about the casualties and their evacuation? One can’t leave them to die or be maimed for life.

I could go on and on.

Just like you have analysed on a map, most do the same on Sand Models. Unfortunately, these “Paper Tigers” do well to rise to higher ranks since the best weapon of war is not the rifle, but the command over the language and a bagful of gobbledygooks preferably picked up in some US School of Instruction.

An example of this is what an Armoured Corps said, when he was caught off guard to explain how he would attack and capture the objective under discussion on the Sand Model. He said, “With a crump of mortar here (and he waved into thin air over the sand model) and a crunch of artillery there (again a waves into nowhere), I will bite a chuck here and I will bite a chuck there with the infantry, the armour will then sally forth and the whole thing will be in the kitty! And that was accepted!

The officer rose to be a Lieutenant General!

Ray

Neo,

There is no geographical advantages.

I will just help you to understand.

In the deserts, the Indian Army sallied forth and captured immense amount.

In the plains in the Punjab, it was much less, way much less.

In the mountains, it remained just a bite here and a bite there?

Why?

It is damed difficult to fight in the mointains and well nigh impossible in High Altitude.

If it were that easy, Aryan would have been voting in the Kashmir elections in India.

Neo

Thaks for the detailed explanation Ray.
I appreciate your expertise

BurningKashmir

Guys with this kinda mentality should be given Nobel Prizes.
Anyways, both countries are Nuclear Powers and it doesn't matter who wins the war. Whole of sub-continuet will become a History if this kinda thing happens.
And moreover, Pakistan didn't suffer as much loss as Kashmiries did in this tragedy. So waging a war during this crisis will be shameful for both the countries.

PS: Try thinking something nice.

__________________
--"Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors. "
For those of you, who don't beleive I am from Kashmir, Take a Look Here

Ji Kashmir ko khon se sencha
Woh Kashmir hamara hain

InnocentMonster

^ Hey , could you please change your location to something like Indian Kashmir

- Thanks

Praxus

Pakistani's are just envious of India's rising power

brownboi4eva

If the same scenario is retried and PAF is involved we can expect to see a bunch of MIGS and Sukhois running all over Pakistan in about a week....no way a bunch of Falcons can save you from the IAF....Missles, Phalcons and Aviation Suites are just too good...

Plus if Pakistan tried the same in 71...The Indian government would have a lot more population, poverty and illiteracy to deal with

__________________
What doesnt kill me, Just makes me stronger :cool:

Neo

Oh really?

Ray

I think it is rising.

It would be a delusion to think India is a power.

Sameer

It would depend on your definition of what a power is, India is certainly a big economic power being the 4th largest and rising, has one of the best millitaries in Asia, it is surely a power in Asia.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7...9000040003.htm

Bush looking forward to India visit’
Pramit Pal Chaudhuri
New Delhi, October 23, 2005

What’s changed to make the US talk about making India a major power in the 21st century?
Two things. First, the Cold War has really ended. The unusual, unique structure in the balance of power globally created by the Cold War has broken down. The US was the ultimate aligned nation. India was the ultimate nonaligned nation during the Cold War. And now we are in a new phase of history where our interests are converging.

Second, the greatest challenges of the future are going to be transnational. Climate change, WMD proliferation, terrorism — we have to overcome them. We cannot approach these problems on our own, unilaterally. We need strategic partners who can operate on a global basis. India has that global ability.

Is the US-China relationship different?
Yes. China is a very important country with which we have a very important relationship. I wouldn’t say we have a strategic partnership with them. The difference is values. India and the US are both democracies. We are personifications of globalisation in the world in terms of our structures.

George W. Bush is personally driving this new relationship...
I think he appreciates the fact that India is a rising power in the world. That the world balance of power is shifting and India is the personification of the kind of friend he would like to have.President Bush is looking forward to visiting India in 2006. Despite the fact he may never have travelled here before, he is someone who has spent five years thinking about our foreign policy and our place in the world. He has clearly articulated India as a priority. We who work for him have that clear instruction.

Bush is in his last term. Will all this continue after he leaves office?President Bush still has three more years in office. He is going to have a major impact on US foreign policy in those three years. Beyond that, there is no strategic difference between Republicans and Democrats regarding India. I have been getting very strong support among Democrats for this opening to India. Members of Congress and members of the Democratic establishment. So there is no difference of opinion in our country. I think that when Bush leaves office, who ever succeeds him will continue to find strong support for this partnership we have with India.

If so, how do you account for the strong opposition in the US Congress? Or your asking that we begin separating our nuclear programme to ensure a ‘yes’ vote in Congress?
If you go back to the July 18 agreement it says India will separate civilian and nuclear programmes. This is not a new condition. We are not moving the goalposts. This is an original obligation for India. We both have obligations. The US has obligations that we are meeting. I would not agree that somehow there is substantial opposition to the civilian nuclear agreement in our Congress. I have testified before Congress and I have met many members of the Hill and I think there is across the board support. There is some criticism. That is not surprising, there are 500 plus legislators. But I believe that when the US and India have implemented their obligations, Congress will support the agreement. And the changes will be made to American law.

Are you trying to make us partner to a containment of China, a future Cold War?
We do not seek to contain China. We do not seek to isolate China. China is too big, too powerful a country and frankly too intertwined with us economically — and now in terms of foreign policy — for us to even contemplate such a construct. You have even seen relations between the US and China improve over the four or five years.

Your present statements stress the importance of Pakistan and India to US interests. How will you square this circle?
American governments tended to have policy in South Asia that was hyphenated. We tended to hyphenate India with Pakistan. We want to dehyphenate the two.

We have a strategic relationship with India. We are now working together in science, education, agriculture, in trade, business and investment.

We have a very different relationship with Pakistan. It is centred on security, counter-terrorism, and making Pakistan effective in that realm.

Sameer

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1527111,0008.htm

Though the first two days after a disaster are the most crucial for relief, the Pakistan army did not begin any real relief work till two days after the October 8 earthquake. This, government sources say, was because it was busy moving troops to the LoC as — strangely — it was afraid that India might take advantage of the disaster and launch an attack.

Three brigades based in PoK were severely hit by the earthquake, with bunkers destroyed and troops killed. So the Pakistan army, government sources say, sent replacement brigades from the 35th infantry division in Gujranwala. It was reliably learnt that the specific reason for this was a fear of an Indian attack.

So worried was the army that troops marched through PoK villages that were wiped out —without stopping to help the victims with either material or in digging for living persons trapped in rubble.

Sources attribute the bizarre fear of India to the army mindset: “What do you expect from a military regime?”

The consequence has been catastrophic. Two weeks after the quake, there are areas in PoK where no relief has reached. UN Secretary General Kofi Annan predicts that more people will die of cold and starvation than from the actual earthquake.

There is understandably great resentment in PoK, and great pressure on General Pervez Musharraf to do something. The President, who on Friday told his people he had no “magic wand” for relief, has suggested the LoC be thrown open for Kashmiri families but has not proposed any details so India has not been able to react.

“He’s trying to make a dramatic proposal in his typical style,” said a source. “But there is nothing different than what’s already being discussed in the peace process.” It is suggested that a Kargil-Skardu link be opened for relief operations, since these are less affected areas.

Jehadi groups have taken over relief operations where the army still hasn’t reached, and India fears this will not bode well for the future. “Western journalists are saying that this could result in fresh waves of recruitment for the jehadis,” a government source pointed out. “Also, we see two long-term trends. The massive destruction will result in huge unemployment; and the absence of the government will mean madrasas will step in in a big way. Either way, the future doesn’t look good in PoK.”






When will this agressive facination with India stop? its really sad. This is what those brainwashing Pakistani school books about evil Yindoos are all about, tsk tsk tsk

Sameer

Indian army wary of open border

By Soutik Biswas
BBC News, Srinagar



There have been attempts to breach the high-security fence along the LOC
India and Pakistan are exploring the possibility of opening up the Line of Control which divides the disputed region of Kashmir to allow quake-affected families to cross over.

India has welcomed the move which had been proposed by Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.

There is at present, however, no sign of any progress in implementing the suggestion.

Senior Indian army officials in Indian-administered Kashmir say they fear that armed separatist militants might use the opportunity to infiltrate into Indian-administered Kashmir from Pakistani-controlled territory.

An umbrella group of militants based in Pakistan, the United Jihad Council, has said that it is suspending operations against Indian security forces in the aftermath of the earthquake.

But on Tuesday, militants shot and killed the education minister in Indian-administered Kashmir demonstrating that not everyone is on board.

No let-up

Two senior officers who spoke to the BBC News website on conditions of anonymity say there has been a spike in violence and attempts to enter Indian-administered Kashmir after the quake.

QUICK GUIDE


Kashmir dispute


Sixteen militants have been killed while trying to enter Indian-administered Kashmir in two separate incidents since the quake, the army says.

Their attempts were foiled in Naugam and Tanghar, both quake affected areas.

It is a very good idea in principle. But how we are going to implement it on the Line of Control is the big question

Indian army official
There have been also four bomb explosions in the valley since the quake - including a woman who is believed to have blown herself up - resulting in a number of civilian casualties.

This, the officials believe, is not in line with the United Jihad Council call to halt their activities temporarily in affected areas.

"When the reports came about heavy damage here, the militants may have thought that the fence on the Line of Control (dividing the disputed region) had been destroyed," the official said.

"They may have thought it was a good time to launch operations and infiltrate."

Some stone bunkers of the army had been damaged by the quake. The damage to the 740km Indian fence on the Line of Control was "minimal- maybe in some meters", he said.

'Breaching the fence'

Some 250km of this high-tech fence on the Line of Control falls in the quake-affected areas of Indian-administered Kashmir, according to one estimate.

It is not easy to cross the 10ft-high electrified concertina coil and barbed wire fence equipped with sensors even at heights of up to 14,000ft.

But wearing insulated rubber gloves and using rubber sheets, light ladders and pliers, militants sometimes manage to climb over or cut through the fence, the officials said.


India says there has been no let-up in violence after the quake
"Overall, the level of attempts at infiltration by militants is the same as last year. There has really been no major let up," an officer said.

The officers said militants had also changed their strategies of infiltration and operations.

For one, they are opting to enter through the upper mountain areas where they believe that security deployment would be thin.

The officers point to an attempt to enter through a 14,000ft-high ridge in Gurez in Indian-administered Kashmir in July. A total of 18 militants are said to have been killed during the unsuccessful bid.

"Earlier they would try to come in through hilly areas where there would be gaps in security deployment. Now they are going to the highest reaches," one officer said.

The militants had also changed their strategy when it came to the nature of attacks - "they have moved from the battle of bullets to the battle of explosives," one officer said.

"They are going in for low-cost, high-profile soft targets and bring about heavy damage," he said, citing the instance of the killing of the minister at his home in Srinagar, the summer capital, on Tuesday.

Militants in Anantnag also killed a low-profile Communist leader on Monday.

The officers said they were not entirely happy with the idea of opening the borders to facilitate the passage of affected people to meet their relatives and friends.

"It is a very good idea in principle. But how we are going to implement it on the Line of Control is the big question," one officer said.

They say that some 25 of the 2,500 people from Pakistan who had been given visas to watch the cricket test match in India had vanished and not returned to their country.

"What is the guarantee that people will come in from across the border and return this time? It's a tricky situation," the officer said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4359914.stm






India offers Kashmir aid points

Pakistan had suggested opening the LoC to provide relief to quake victims
India has offered to open three relief centres for victims of the South Asia earthquake along the Line of Control (LoC) in divided Kashmir.
Survivors from both sides of the border could meet family members there and receive medical assistance, India's external affairs ministry announced.

A spokesman said the ministry was awaiting Pakistan's response.

India and Pakistan have fought two wars over Kashmir, and relations between the two sides remain tense over the area.

The relief centres mooted would be at Kaman Post in Uri district, Tithwal in Tangdhar and Chakan Dabagh in Poonch.

They could be operational by 25 October, external affairs spokesman Navtej Sarna told reporters.

"People from across the Line of Control will be allowed to come in during daylight hours after suitable screening and then return," Mr Sarna said.

He added they would have access to food, clothing and medical relief and would be allowed to meet relatives residing in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf had earlier suggested opening up the heavily-militarised border to help the relief operation following the quake which killed more than 50,000 people.

Following India's offer, Pakistan announced it had submitted to New Delhi details of Mr Musharraf's plan to open the Kashmir border.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4366528.stm

platinum786

bullsh1t, it's the damned problem, not the solution.

I'll tell you the ideal solution, both India and Pakistan take a long walk off a short pier and leave Kashmir, all of it to it's own accord.

That is an ideal solution.

Samudra

Utopian solutions wont work.

Srirangan

Especially when...

__________________
I rant, therefore I am.