Sameer

Looks like we evil Hindus are at it again, a bill which will set precedence across the country has just been passed in AP state.

All part of India's march forward, its not perfect but its aiming higher.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1254397.cms

Quota for AP Muslims gets legislative backing

IANS[ THURSDAY, OCTOBER 06, 2005 12:48:59 PM ]

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HYDERABAD: Muslims in Andhra Pradesh have hailed the passing of a bill providing five per cent reservation to the community in educational institutions and government jobs as "historic".

With the bill passed late Wednesday, the state assembly has become the first in the country to give legislative backing to quotas for Muslims, who constitute 9.2 percent of Andhra Pradesh's 76 million population.

Community leaders expressed hope that the move would go a long way in improving economic and educational conditions of Muslims.

The bill, which replaced an ordinance issued by Governor Sushil Kumar Shinde in June, was passed late Wednesday with the entire 294-member house, except for the two Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) legislators, giving its support.

In a rare show of unanimity, the ruling Congress, its allies Communist Party of India (CPI), Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M), the main opposition Telugu Desam Party (TDP), Telangana Rashtra Samiti (TRS), Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM) and other smaller parties supported the bill.

Last year, the government had issued an executive order in this regard but it was struck down by the high court, which directed the government to constitute the Backward Classes Commission to look into the issue.

The commission in June submitted its report recommending that Muslims be included in the list of backward classes to provide five percent quota.

However, a leader of Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and few students again challenged the move in the high court, which reserved its verdict.

The earlier move had raised doubts in the community about the sincerity of the government.

The move has set to rest all doubts.




The problem with Indian Muslims is that women dont tend to work in the urban areas since men wont let them while Hindu/Christian/Sikh/Budhist women are starting to work, ie there is an obvious income gap (men and women combined.
income vs men only income)

Now Indian schools are impossible to get into, my cousin could barely make it and he had a good 81% average and he is no "backward class" member but I guess this is for the better.

Sameer

A bit unrelated but oh well our Sania is doing us proud.

also from timesofindia.com

Sania Mirza enters quarter final

PTI[ THURSDAY, OCTOBER 06, 2005 01:32:43 PM ]

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NEW DELHI: India's Sania Mirza entered the quarter-finals of the USD 170,000 AIG Japan Open Tennis Tournament with a straight set victory over Japan's Aiko Nakamura on Thursday.

Sania, sedded eighth, set up a clash with top seed Russia's Zvonareva, who beat Shahar Peer of France 6-3, 7-5 to make it to the last eight.

Continuing her fine form in the tournament, Sania thwarted the home challenge with a 6-1, 6-4 win after the match had to be postponed on wednesday due to heavy rains.

"I thought I played a good match. I had a solid start to the match in the first set. In the second set, Aiko picked up her game, but I think I played well when it mattered on the important points," she said after the match.

The 18-year-old from Hydreabad had defeated Vilmarie Castellvi of Puerto Rico in her first round.

Ray

Great stuff.

More power to women.

Karthik

The bill passed by the AP government is apalling and shameful.

This kind of blatant minority appeasement to garner votes is absolutely dispicable. It will result in more divisive politics. It does not augur well for our system of government.

The Chief Minister of AP has been undoing the good work done by his predecessor. IT investment in AP will now take a hit.

One day will come, when these people will realise that minority appeasement and minority empowerment are two different things. By then, things would have become too tight to resolve.

__________________
"There is no excellence in all this world that can be separated from right living." - David Star Jordan My Blog

Sameer

I dont think that its a bad thing, India is not yet evolved enough on the economic and social front to trust that minorities will have the same per capita income, it is the responsability of the Govt to make sure that the gap is minimal.

Speaking of Muslims, my favourite one just kicked butt again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/4318558.stm
Mirza sees off top seed Zvonareva

Latest results
India's Sania Mirza upset top seed Vera Zvonareva of Russia in three sets to reach the last four of the Japan Open.
The world number 37 won 5-7 6-2 6-4 to set up a semi-final against France's Tatiana Golovin, who beat Japan's Ai Sugiyama 3-6 6-2 6-2.

Second seed Nicole Vaidisova will face Maria Kirilenko in the second semi.

"I think I played one of my best matches," said Mirza. "She's the number one seed, and I'm happy that I was able to play my game."

Zvonareva said: "I started out OK. I think I played well in the first set, but then I lost my concentration and couldn't get my game back.

"She's a good player. For me, it was important to concentrate on my game and do what I needed to do, but I couldn't play good tennis throughout the whole match."

Vaidisova, of the Czech Republic, defeated Sweden's Sofia Arvidsson 2-6 6-3 6-2, while fourth seed Maria Kirilenko of Russia beat American Jill Craybas 6-2 4-6 6-2.


BALLE BALLE.

Just Browsing

This is the basic misunderstanding most of us have, about Civic Nationalism.

[ Please scroll down to: Oct 9th, 2005 - 7:27 PM, Observer Post#59 in the following link:

http://pub16.bravenet.com/forum/1349.../show/475088/3 ]

Civic Nationalism strives for Equal Opportunity.

Communism strives for Equal Outcome.

When we say "the same per capita income", let us, at least, be honest. We are striving for communism via Equal Outcome, aren't we?

No offence. Nothing wrong with being a communist. But, at least, let us be an honest communist rather than a dishonest one.

Sameer

Its not merely a question of being communist, just hearin that term makes me want to vomit, not that i dont think this system may eventually work in 1000 years or so but i start to smell the China loving commies in our Govt...

As I was saying, it is the responsability of the Indian govt to make sure that the GINI coefficient is as close to the 45 degree line as possible Now in terms of minorities, we all know why there is a growing gap between Hindus and Muslims in India, Muslim women are not working is a big one but the govt still has a responsabnility to minimize this by offering incentives. Now the role of the Govt, it can be argued, is to maximize social welfare and giving the minorities a lending hand is one such example. You cannot change primitive religious beliefs and cultures overnight, we cannot force Muslim/Hindu/Sikh/scheduled cast, you mame it to change their beliefs but it is the responsability of the govt to try as hard as possible to get school enrollmet by such "disadvantaged groups" as high as possible by any means.

Eventually as the country evolves and people get more educated, we wont need to give seats to someone because of religion or sex. It will be given by merit. you may argue that the private sector has the right to folow such a mantra but the Govt and Govt subsidized istitutions have a responsability towards welfare maximization. This is not only done in India but in other parts of the world as well and it really ticks everyone off.

Just Browsing

1.

I did an Acronym Finder Search for 'GINI' at the following website:

http://www.acronymfinder.com/

It came back empty. The only hits were:

"Gazette International Networking Institute"

"Global Information Networking Institute"

Both hits are meaningless in this context. Can you please give me a link where I can find the acronym GINI with the meaning intended by you.

Respectfully, the reason I am concerned is to ensure that we don't use terminology to baffle but to clarify issues.

To me, your answer is very important.

2.

'Incentive' in terms of opportunity. Not in terms of outcome. Otherwise, we may as well appoint them as 'Faculty Members' in colleges to achieve our quota of 'equal per capita income'.

3.

'Lending Hand' in terms of opportunity. Not in terms of outcome. Otherwise, we may as well appoint them as 'Faculty Members' in colleges to achieve our quota of 'equal per capita income'.

4.

'school enrollmet' is an opportunity and not an outcome. Unless we want to distribute degrees to ensure 'Equal Outcome'.

5.

When will this 'eventually' come? If it has not come in 50 years, will it come in 500? 5000? This is what the Supreme Court said:

New Delhi, Aug 10, 2005 (IANS) The Supreme Court has said the practice of listing religious groups as minority communities should be discouraged, even as it rejected a plea to give minority status to the Jain community.

A bench of Chief Justice R.C. Lahoti and judges D.M. Dharmadhikari and P.K. Balasubramanyan Monday dismissed a petition that sought a direction to the government to notify the Jain community as a minority group within the meaning of the National Commission for Minorities Act.

Significantly, the court asked the National Commission for Minorities to suggest ways to help create social conditions where the list of notified minorities "is gradually reduced and done away with altogether".

The bench was of the view that different treatment for linguistic minorities based on language within the state was understandable.

"But if the same concept for minorities on the basis of religion was encouraged, the whole country, which is already under class and social conflicts due to various divisive forces, will further face division on the basis of religious diversities," the bench said.

Writing the judgment, Dharmadhikari said: "Such claims to minority status based on religion would increase in the fond hope of various sections of people getting special protections, privileges and treatment as part of constitutional guarantees.

"Encouragement to such fissiparous tendencies would be a serious jolt to the secular structure of constitutional democracy."

The bench said: "We should guard against making our country akin to a theocratic state based on multi-nationalism. Our concept of secularism is that `state' will have no religion.

"The state will treat all religions and religious groups equally and with equal respect without in any manner interfering with their individual rights of religion, faith and worship."

The judges asked the minorities commissions set up by the central and state governments to keep in mind that the goal of the constitution was to create social conditions where there was no need to protect the rights of minority or majority communities.

The court said if each minority group felt afraid of the others, an atmosphere of mutual fear and distrust would be created that would pose serious threat to the integrity of the nation and lead to the sowing of seeds of multi-nationalism.

"It is, therefore, necessary that minorities commissions should act in a manner so as to prevent generating feelings of multi-nationalism in various sections of people of Bharat," the bench said.

6.

Can you please name one such country besides India, so I could provide a focussed response?

Pakistan? Bangladesh? Iran? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Malaysia? Indonesia? Japan? Should I go on?

Vaman

try "Gini index".
Google should throw up something useful.

Sameer

Canada, the US, England have rules wherein if you are a visible minority, in many cases, you may get preference in gaining a job, university acceptance etc...


The GINI coefficient essentially means x% of population accounts for % of total output.

I think that in India its something like 22% of the population account for 80% of output, Ill check up on that one.
Nordic countries have the most equal GINI coefficient.

In any event when you talk about equal opportunity in India, there is a big problem, there is no such thing as equal opportunity in most places.

Now of course social intergration should be encouraged, cassifying people into religious groups may not be the best solution but the Govt's job is to make sure that minorities are as successful as possible, ie lend them a helping hand, the private sector can hire who they wish based on merit in my opinion but the role of the public sector is to look after minority rights and economic prosperity.

Equal opportunity sounds nice but India is not there as of yet, only in theory, hence giving x% seats so to speak levels the playing field. Once the group's per capita income is close to or equal to the population average, we can dispense of such laws and move back to merit.

Sameer

There is a good study that was conducted on Muslim women which explains much of the disparity in family incomes compared to other social groups. It does say that rather than looking at religion, one should look at regions and economic classes that are disadvantaged and you could conclude that rather than offering Muslims x% of seats, why not offer the poorest in general preference over govt posts, again its an interesting read.

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2119...4002810300.htm

Muslim women in India

JAYATI GHOSH

A new book provides a broad spectrum investigation into the socio-economic status of Muslim women in India, and delves into the roots of their disadvantaged conditions of life.



STEREOTYPING is usually a necessary precondition for social discrimination, and all the more so when various social and cultural realities are sought to be hardened into "identities". That is probably why, over the past decade especially, certain stereotypes have been systematically developed about the minority communities (especially Muslims, but also Christians).



PRAKASH HATVALNE/AP

Veiled Indian Muslim women walk through a street in Bhopal.
purdah and triple talaq that it is rendered almost invisible.

In such a context, it is refreshing to come across a study that seeks to go beyond the sociological veil spread by a focus on purdah, and actually examines the conditions faced by different categories of Muslim women in the country. A new book by Zoya Hasan and Ritu Menon (Unequal Citizens: Muslim Women in India, New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2004) presents the results of a national survey covering around 10,000 Muslim and Hindu women.

This is the first such survey of this magnitude, covering the whole country, and obviously therefore, the findings deserve attention. But perhaps even more interesting than the results themselves are the insights that are drawn into the interplay of various factors that determine the conditions of Muslim women's lives.

Of course, there are some easily predictable conclusions, especially with respect to economic status. The low socio-economic status of Muslims is now well-known; like the Scheduled Castes, they are disproportionately represented among the poor and have the lowest per capita income indicators. This is ascribed not only to the lack of access to asset ownership, but also to poor educational attainment and occupational patterns, which show clustering in low-paid activities, as well as the concentration of the Muslim population in the economically backward regions of the country.

This economic differentiation constitutes probably the primary source of differentiation in status between Muslim and Hindu women in the aggregate, since the household's level of assets ownership, occupation and income possibilities critically determine the basic conditions of life of the women. However, there are significant regional differences in this: Muslims are generally poor in the north (especially rural areas) and the east, but less so in the south.

But other findings of the study are much less predictable, and do much to demolish the damaging stereotypes that are so widely purveyed about Muslim women.

One of the standard assumptions about Muslim women is that religion prevents them from getting more equal access to education. It is certainly true that Muslim women are more likely to be illiterate than Hindu women (in the survey, 59 per cent had never attended school and less than 10 per cent had completed school). However, the study shows that this is essentially the result of low socio-economic status, rather than religion. Across the survey, among all communities and caste groups, financial constraints and gender bias dominate over other factors in determining levels of education. Indeed, in those regions where Muslims are better off (as in the south and to a lesser extent in the west), Muslim women also have higher levels of education.

However, two other features that are more specific to the Muslim community may have operated to devalue continuing education for girls. The first is that Muslim men also have very low educational attainment in general. The study found that 26 per cent of educated Muslim women had illiterate husbands. This low male education level would create further pressures to impose ceilings on girls' education, so as not to render them "unmarriageable". In addition, the low age of marriage is a major inhibiting factor. At the national level, the mean age of marriage of Muslim girls is very low at 15.6 years, and in the rural north it falls to an appalling 13.9 years.

Low marriage age has a number of other adverse implications: it is usually associated with high early fertility, which affects women's nutrition and health status; it tends to reduce women's autonomy and agency in the marital home and to create conditions of patriarchal subservience that get perpetuated through life, and it thereby often reduces self-worth.

This, in turn, may affect women's work participation in direct and indirect ways. It is well known that the work participation of Muslim women is very low, but the study indicates that this may be less due to the force of religion per se than to the patriarchal structures and patterns as well as low mobility and lack of opportunity that define their lives. It is worth noting that the work participation rate of women across communities tends to be low in certain regions, especially in the north and the east.

Some of this is due to straightforward control over women's agency by male members of the household. Seventy five per cent of the women in the survey (both Hindu and Muslim) reported that they need permission from their husbands to work outside the home. Interestingly, the study revealed that across the board women in India tend to have relatively less autonomy of decision-making within the household.

Less than 10 per cent of the respondents took any decisions on their own in major or minor matters, and among the 30 per cent who took decisions jointly with their husbands, Muslim women reported greater consultation than Hindus for all categories of decisions. Clearly, however, patriarchal control remains one important constraint upon the outside work of women, among Muslims as well as certain other social categories.

But in addition, most of the outside work that the representative Muslim woman has access to falls in the lowest paid and most exploited categories of labour. Such activities - self-employed in low-productivity activities in the informal sector, as casual labourers and domestic servants - imply poor working conditions and low wages. It is, therefore, possible that Muslim women are kept out of the paid workforce not only by religious or purdah type motivations, but perhaps more significantly by low education, lack of opportunity, low mobility and the inability to delegate domestic responsibilities.

In terms of domestic violence - which is widely recognised to be increasing in India - the incidence cuts across caste, class and community. The survey finds that over 50 per cent of the reported violence (which may, of course, be different from the actual incidence of violence) is among the Scheduled Caste and the Scheduled Tribe households, which also happen to be the poorest of the poor. Muslim women come in third (after Other Backward Castes) at 18 per cent. What is possibly more significant is that husbands were identified as the primary perpetrators in more than 80 per cent of cases.

EFFECTIVELY, what this study shows is that Hindu-Muslim differences in patterns of marriage, autonomy, mobility and domestic violence are insignificant. There is no apparent community-wise variation in women's decision-making, mobility and access to public spaces. Rather, what the survey indicates is that most women in India - across communities and regions - have very little autonomy and control over their own lives. Of course, such constraints are not felt equally by all women, but the distinctions are determined more by class and geographical location than by community. Indeed, regional development appears to be a better predictor of the status of women and "Muslimness" or religion per se.

These are obviously extremely important results, which point to a different direction for public policy as well. There are clear indications of the need for a new, less predetermined conception of community and especially of the status of women within a community. This would go beyond the patterns of special group recognition, in which notions of "identity" (however patriarchal) are maintained at all costs. It would also have to avoid getting bogged down by controversies over claims of the minorities of enhanced representation in government jobs and the like.

Rather, the social and economic processes that confront marginal groups in general need to be addressed - to enable greater real democracy across different social groups and across gender within social groups.

Sameer

Note though that without equal opportunity the Govt's policy of helping the poor by offering them seats or posts is not a bad solution because the social and economic processes that, as the article mentions, confront marginal groups will take time to be addressed.

Just Browsing

Note: Segments from your Post are indented, italicized and within Quotation Marks.

"Canada, the US, England have rules wherein if you are a visible minority, in many cases, you MAY get PREFERENCE in gaining a job, university acceptance etc..."

In AP, 5% Quota is a 'MUST'. Therefore, I compliment you for the clever use of 'MAY' when using 'Canada, the US, England' for comparison in the above sentence of yours.

If it was someone else other than you, I would have interpreted this to be sophistry.

You start by claiming to compare two apples. Then switch the second apple by a banana. And continue comparing them, extolling the similarity between the first apple ('MUST') and the second apple which, we hope nobody would notice, has been switched by a banana. ('MAY').

There are Job advertisements in Canada & USA which state that the advertising company is an Equal Opportunity Employer which does not discriminate based on Race, Religion or Ethnicity. There are No Quotas like the 5% in AP.based on Religion.

In being 'Well Meaning Fools', Indians are a class by themselves and shine like a beacon.

"The GINI coefficient essentially means x% of population accounts for % of total output. I think that in India its something like 22% of the population account for 80% of output, Ill check up on that one. Nordic countries have the most equal GINI coefficient."

I took this statement to a 'Neighbour of a Friend' who has an old Facit mechanical
calculator with 13 digits & 7 decimal places.

I asked him:

"If the INCOME of EVERY PERSON in India,

INCLUDING the burqua clad MUSLIM WOMEN for whom my heart bleeds while I
watch Sania Mirza on TV, AND

INCLUDING the ISLAMIST BIGOTS who keep those burqua clad Muslim women away from education & jobs while they, themselves, wallow in the 5% quota, AND
who have the added incentive to keep those burqua clad Muslim Women away from education & jobs for the next 5000 years so that they could continue to use those Muslim Women statistics to convince Sameerji in the mean time to give them the 5% quota ( BECAUSE the quota is NOT for Muslim women but for Muslims who include the Bigots who are the very cause and who would make sure that the Muslim Women do not benefit ),

increased overnight TEN times what it is today, what will be the change in the Gini
Index?".

I was shocked when, after using his ancient calculator, he told me that the answer was a BIG FAT ZERO to SEVEN DECIMAL PLACES.

Unfortunately, he was limited by his old calculator in terms of the number of decimal places and could not be more precise.

I told him that an experienced person like Sameerji who admires Gini Index with
a fervour, could not be so wrong.

So I asked him to tell me:

"If the income of EVERY PERSON in India, INCLUDING the burqua clad MUSLIM WOMEN and INCLUDING the ISLAMIST BIGOTS who keep them down, increased overnight HUNDRED times what it is today, what will be the change in the Gini Index?".

I was again shocked when he told me that the answer was a BIG FAT ZERO to SEVEN DECIMAL PLACES.

Therefore, for the sake of those Muslim Women whom you cite to justify the 5 % Quota and who will remain perpetually burqua clad because there existence is essential to ASK for a Quota if none exists and is essential to MAINTAIN a Quota,
if one exists, I respectfully ask:

"If the income of EVERY PERSON in India, INCLUDING the burqua clad MUSLIM WOMEN and INCLUDING the ISLAMIST BIGOTS who keep them down, increased overnight ONE THOUSAND times what it is today, what will be the change in the Gini Index?".

It is a simple MATHEMATICAL QUESTION. And my 'Friend's Neighbour' is a very suspicious man in case we tried to hoodwink him with a long statement which
does not include the MATHEMATICAL ANSWER.

"In any event when you talk about equal opportunity in India, there is a big problem, "there is no such thing as equal opportunity in most places."

Is that a justification for setting a 5% Quota for OUTCOME and not OPPORTUNITY?.

"Now of course social intergration should be encouraged, cassifying people into religious groups may not be the best solution but the Govt's job is to make sure that minorities are as successful as possible, ie lend them a helping hand, the private sector can hire who they wish based on merit in my opinion but the role of the public sector is to look after minority rights and economic prosperity."

Is that a justification for setting a 5% Quota for OUTCOME and not OPPORTUNITY?.

"Equal opportunity sounds nice but India is not there as of yet, only in theory, hence giving x% seats so to speak levels the playing field."

You are so right. Now how about a Quota for 700,000 Kashmiri Pandits who are rotting in refugee camps. Or should they move to AP and become Muslims to get the Quota. Mind you, if the Islamist Bigots who drove these Kashmiri Pandits out of their homes with rape & pillage, moved to AP, those islamist Bigots will qualify for a 5 % Quota.

If President Kalam had a family and his children moved to AP, they will qualify for the Quota. Of course, because there are burqua clad Muslim women in our society.

Pray tell, if the Kashmiri Pandit women started wearing the burqua & moved to AP, will THEY qualify. I BET NOT. Unless, of course, they CONVERTED to being Muslim Women.

"Once the group's per capita income is close to or equal to the population average, we can dispense of such laws and move back to merit. "

Sure. And that won't happen even if the income of EACH man, woman & child in India increased by ONE THOUSAND TIMES overnight.

Now I understand. We are NOT a dishonest Communist. Just a very shy one.

"There is a good study that was conducted on Muslim women which explains much of the disparity in family incomes compared to other social groups. It does say that rather than looking at religion, one should look at regions and economic classes that are disadvantaged and you could conclude that rather than offering Muslims x% of seats, why not offer the poorest in general preference over govt posts, again its an interesting read."

Except for the FACT that this is not what the AP Government whom we are extolling in this thread, did.

"http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl211...24002810300.htm
Muslim women in India JAYATI GHOSH

A new book provides a broad spectrum investigation into the socio-economic status of Muslim women in India, and delves into the roots of their disadvantaged conditions of life.

"STEREOTYPING is usually a necessary precondition for social discrimination, and all the more so when various social and cultural realities are sought to be hardened into "identities". That is probably why, over the past decade especially,
certain stereotypes have been systematically developed about the minority communities (especially Muslims, but also Christians)."

I understand.

That's why we are STEREOTYPING the Kashmiri Pandits rotting in refugee camps because, in our STEREOTYPICAL minds, they have got to be privileged by virtue of being Brahmins.

AND STEREOTYPING President Kalam's hypothetical Muslim children if they lived in AP who would qualify for the 5% Quota, because some Islamist Bigot won't let his girls get a decint education. Wonderful !

"Veiled Indian Muslim women walk through a street in Bhopal.
purdah and triple talaq that it is rendered almost invisible. "

I have learnt at the feet of a Master. By now, even I know the remedy.

5% Job Quota for Muslims in Bhopal. ( Not for these women whom the Islamist Bigots won't allow to walk without purdah anyway but for the Islamist Bigots. )

"In such a context, it is REFRESHING to come across a study that seeks to go beyond the sociological veil spread by a focus on purdah, and actually examines the conditions faced by different categories of Muslim women in the country. ... ....
they are disproportionately represented among the poor and have the lowest per capita income indicators. This is ascribed not only to the lack of access to asset ownership, but also to poor educational attainment and occupational patterns, wwhich show clustering in low-paid activities, as well as the concentration of the Muslim population in the economically backward regions of the country. This economic differentiation constitutes probably the primary source of differentiation in status between Muslim and Hindu women in the aggregate, since the household's level of assets ownership, occupation and income possibilities critically determine the basic conditions of life of the women. However, there are significant regional differences in this: Muslims are generally poor in the north (especially rural areas) and the east, but less so in the south. "

Notice that this REFRESHING study, assiduously, makes no mention of the Islamist Bigots as the root cause of the plight of the Muslim Women.

The remedy is , of course, the aforesaid 5% Job Quota for Muslims ( excluding the Muslim Women, of course, for reasons given above)

"This economic differentiation constitutes probably the primary source of differentiation in status between Muslim and Hindu women in the aggregate, since the household's level of assets ownership, occupation and income possibilities critically determine the basic conditions of life of the women. However, there are significant regional differences in this: Muslims are generally poor in the north (especially rural areas) and the east, but less so in the south."

This line of argument constitutes a waste of everyone's time by introducing fascinating but irrelevant 'cut & paste' verbiage.

"But other findings of the study are much less predictable, and do much to demolish the damaging stereotypes that are so widely purveyed about Muslim women. One of the standard assumptions about Muslim women is that religion prevents them from getting more equal access to education. It is certainly true that Muslim women are more likely to be illiterate than Hindu women (in the survey, 59 per cent had never attended school and less than 10 per cent had completed school). However, the study shows that this is essentially the result of low socio-economic status, rather than religion. Across the survey, among all communities and caste groups, financial constraints and gender bias dominate over other factors in determining levels of education. Indeed, in those regions where Muslims are better off (as in the south and to a lesser extent in the west), Muslim women also have higher levels of education. However, two other features that are more specific to the Muslim community may have operated to devalue continuing education for girls. The first is that Muslim men also have very low educational attainment in general. The study found that 26 per cent of educated Muslim women had illiterate husbands. This low male education level would create further pressures to impose ceilings on girls' education, so as not to render them "unmarriageable". In addition, the low age of marriage is a major inhibiting factor. At the national level, the mean age of marriage of Muslim girls is very low at 15.6 years, and in the rural north it falls to an appalling 13.9 years. Low marriage age has a number of other adverse implications: it is usually associated with high early fertility, which affects women's nutrition and health status; it tends to reduce women's autonomy and agency in the marital home and to create conditions of patriarchal subservience that get perpetuated through life, and it thereby often reduces self-worth. This, in turn, may affect women's work participation in direct and indirect ways. It is well known that the work participation of Muslim women is very low, but the study indicates that this may be less due to the force of religion per se than to the patriarchal structures and patterns as well as low mobility and lack of opportunity that define their lives. It is worth noting that the work participation rate of women across communities tends to be low in certain regions, especially in the north and the east. Some of this is due to straightforward control over women's agency by male members of the household. Seventy five per cent of the women in the survey (both Hindu and Muslim) reported that they need permission from their husbands to work outside the home. Interestingly, the study revealed that across the board women in India tend to have relatively less autonomy of decision-making within the household. Less than 10 per cent of the respondents took any decisions on their own in major or minor matters, and among the 30 per cent who took decisions jointly with their husbands, Muslim women reported greater consultation than Hindus for all categories of decisions. Clearly, however, patriarchal control remains one
important constraint upon the outside work of women, among Muslims as well as certain other social categories. But in addition, most of the outside work that the representative Muslim woman has access to falls in the lowest paid and most exploited categories of labour. Such activities - self-employed in low-productivity activities in the informal sector, as casual labourers and domestic servants - imply poor working conditions and low wages. It is, therefore, possible that Muslim women are kept out of the paid workforce not only by religious or purdah type motivations, but perhaps more significantly by low education, lack of opportunity, low mobility and the inability to delegate domestic responsibilities. In terms of domestic violence - which is widely recognised to be increasing in India - the incidence cuts across caste, class and community. The survey finds that over 50 per cent of the reported violence (which may, of course, be different from the actual incidence of violence) is among the Scheduled Caste and the Scheduled Tribe households, which also happen to be the poorest of the poor. Muslim women come in third (after Other Backward Castes) at 18 per cent. What is possibly more significant is that husbands were identified as the primary perpetrators in more than 80 per cent of cases. EFFECTIVELY, what this study shows is that Hindu-Muslim differences in patterns of marriage, autonomy, mobility and domestic violence are insignificant. There is no apparent community-wise variation in women's decision-making, mobility and access to public spaces. Rather, what the survey indicates is that most women in India - across communities and regions - have very little autonomy and control over their own lives. Of course, such constraints are not felt equally by all women, but the distinctions are determined more by class and geographical location than by community. Indeed, regional development appears to be a better predictor of the status of women and "Muslimness" or religion per se. These are obviously extremely important results, which point to a different direction for public policy as well. There are clear indications of the need for a new, less predetermined conception of community and especially of the status of women within a community. This would go beyond the patterns of special group recognition, in which notions of "identity" (however patriarchal) are maintained at all costs. It would also have to avoid getting bogged down by controversies over claims of the minorities of enhanced representation in government jobs and the like. Rather, the social and economic processes that confront marginal groups in general need to be addressed - to enable greater real democracy across different
social groups and across gender within social groups."

This line of argument constitutes a waste of everyone's time by introducing fascinating but irrelevant 'cut & paste' verbiage.

"Note though that without equal opportunity the Govt's policy of helping the poor by offering them seats or posts is not a bad solution because the social and economic processes that, as the article mentions, confront marginal groups will take time to be addressed."

Offering them posts is Government determining OUTCOME NOT OPPORTUNITY. Let us wait till the Indian people can be fooled into choosing Communism as the solution for the problem of the Muslim Women.

Is 50 years since independence not enough time?. Will 500 years be enough? If yes, why?. The Islamist Bigots will make sure that it is at lest 5000.

Kashmiri Pandit Women, rotting in the refugee camps, can wait.

By the way, are Kashmiri Pandit Women a minority? I bet not one of them can play tennis like Sania Mirza.

Sameer

First off, thanks for the long response, its good to see that this forum is getting better and better everyday.


Now I do not know what kind of calculations your friend did, for one thing only the Planning Comission of India and NACER have accurate data on minority incomes and their % of total output. Since Muslims account for roughtly between 15-22% of the Indian population, a doubling of their per capita income relative to other groups would change the GINI, however there are no published reports out there for obvious reasons, you may find a few but these are mostly wrong (what numbers did your friend use?).

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GiniCoefficient.html

The gini index formula can be found there and certainly it would involve data gathering and statistical analysis which may not be available in your every day calculator....


What is known though from reading through a few unpublished reports is that the average per capita of Muslims in India has been rising at around 3.3% per year while the national average stood at around 4.2% between 1992-2002 and the standard deviation has been on the inrease for Muslims, ie statistical sigma divergence is happening.

Now we may agrue for ever wether being Muslim should entitle you to a quota system and if I did not make myself clear before, my opinion on the matter and probably what the Planning Commission wishes to propose in the next 5 year plan involves categorizing all groups that are not on par in terms of national income to be considered "backwards" so to speak and they would be entitled to a quota for public sector jobs. It just so happens that Muslims would form part of this group of people who earn less tan the national average. The role of the govt is to maximize social welfare and them giving preferences to any backwards classes in an environment where EQUAL OPPORTUNITY is a long term project is not all that bad.

In regards to equal opportunity in Canada and the US, let me clarify, I did my undergrads in Canada and Masters in the US, at Berkley if a monority had an average of 83% and a while person had an average of 85%, they would give preferrence to the minority in admitance, in fact in the US there is an unofficial quota of around 20% in Colleges, if you think that there is equal opportunity in the US and Canada as of yet..., in Toronto they have proposed a law enabling homosexuals who account for 10% of the population of the city to be proportionally represented in the municipal sector, now i dont live there so i cant give you the updates. Certainly i worked in the US, in New York, for 2 years and i can assure you that minorities were hired beyound simply merit, especially blacks and hispanics and in the US its stupid because Indian Americans earn more that white Americans and should not be considered to be in the same category as that of blacks and hispanics but thats a different story...

The Indian Govt cannot force Muslim men or women to move into the 21st century, and they cannot ignore an increasing wage differential ratio because this segment of society accounts for a large % of the total population, gving a small 5% quota to an AP Muslm population of 10% is not all that bad, we would expect at least 5% of the workforce to be Muslim given their 6.5+% working age population anyway.

I do not see what the wrong is of hiring "backward" (i only mean this in the per capita income sense) minorities in order to increase this group's wealth when your much promoted concept of equal opportunity is a work in progress in India.

About Kashmiri pundits, certainly if you wish to look at the Hindu community, any kashmiri Hindu who isa Dalit would be given preference already in the Indian public sector anyway, and I being born a Hindu kashmiri would most welcome your petition to get the "higer cast Hindu refugees" the "backward" status.

But this will happen anyway as the Govt will soon move to the income measure rather than the race or religious measure, this Muslim 5% quota thing is a temporary rule that will beassimilated into the wider poverty aleviation programme in the next five year plan.
Ie any family earning less than the national average gets preference to get a public sector job.

In terms of women getting an education, this is already happening with a recent law passed wherein the Govt aims at helping families with daughters financially irrespective of economic class to get an education... but in order for this to make a difference, time is needed and the Govt cannot sit around and let a long term project take its course while the income gap gets wider....

Sameer

Also I am no shy communist but i do volunteer a lot every summer in Bihar etc in poor villages, guess that makes me into a leftie but if you ever followed the India economy thread where I tend to post, you would quickly realize that my views are quite different.

There is a huge income gap in India, wanting to mi