Bluesman

I think that the poor decisions at the local and state levels made loss of life to dehydration inevitable. I'm arguing the point with somebody that thinks that NObody need have died from lack of clean water. (In other words, if the military had been handled better, relief could've come quicker. National Guard troops and helos from all services should've been able to prevent loss of life, even with the titanic screw-ups from Blanco's and Nagin's offices.)

Well? Who wants to argue each side? Did Bush do as much as he could to pre-position and plan and deploy, etc? Or was the lag-time unnecessarily long, leading to larger body counts?

As a seperate question, when large numbers of lives are on the line and it can be clearly perceived that state and local authorities' decisions are leading to losses of life, should Bush have said to hell with ANY law (thinking here specifically of Posse Comitatus) that prevents saving as many as possible, and simply seized authority, working out the legalities later?

__________________
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Anon

Guv Blanco didn't formally request federal troop assistance until the afternoon of 2 sept.

By law no Federal US troops could be commited to NO one moment before that happened.

Posse Comitatus you see.

Beyond that she didn't authorize out of state cops to operate in La until 1 sept. This is also the same time she declared a state of emergency in La. Fully 5 days after President Bush had done so.

No La state school district(nor NOs) buses were utilized for facilitating mandatory evacuations. Indeed the school buses were not comandeered by the Gov until 3 Sept, when literally hundreds of them were in water up past their axles sitting in their bus parks.

The levees broke on 31 August.

You decide who's at fault....cause it seems pretty clear to me.


Here are all relevant links taken directly from the La .gov site.

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Re...tail.asp?id=991
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Re...tail.asp?id=994
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Re...ail.asp?id=1001

dalem

Hard for me to lay any blame at anyone's feet other than those of the governor of LA and mayor of N.O. and the able-bodied who ignored the evacuation order.

But I still think that some of the stranded would have died anyway because of the sheer difficulty of finding and reaching them when the city is inundated.

As far as the authority issue, I say no. People need to be more responsible for their own safety in emergencies and encouraging the Feds to jump in before they are asked for is a bad precedent.

-dale

Bluesman

Yeah, I know about the law that prevents it. But should Dubya have allowed it to prevent him from acting, knowing that several thousand lives hung in the balance?

This may come down to a value judgement: is a Constitutional violation worth committing if it will save, say, 3,000 innocent hurricane victims? Is the number even important, and if so, what is the minimum number that would justify a deliberate violation of law by the President? Is the 'violation' of a technical nature that no compassionate and logical person could object to, due to the objective of saving lives, vice oppressing a state's citizens, as the law was clearly intended to prevent?

Hey, I'm witcha, man. I already KNOW who gets the lion's share of the blame. What I want to know is, did Bush and the Feds (excluding FEMA; it's becoming clearer everyday that Brown was slow and not particularly competent) bungle the military's positioning/deployment/employment? No matter what the locals and state guys did or failed to do, did the Prez do everything he could have as fast as possible? Did he lean as far forward as he had to? Could water have been delivered to the people faster than it was, thereby preventing their deaths?

I am arguing with somebody that thinks that it was a surmountable problem to deliver whatever was vitally needed much, much sooner than it was actually done (this is Julie's argument, too, I believe), had we the will to do it. Basically, that people died because of a failure by Bush and the Feds.

I disagree. I think the prepositioned forces were as close as they could prudently be. I think the routes into the city were in such a state that distribution was impossible. I believe that small watercraft were hard to come by. I believe that there were too many isolated people, not large concentrations that could be efficiently supplied with consumables. I believe that the security situation was so chaotic that it interfered in major ways with relief ops.

I think anybody that criticizes the national effort for being too slow is ignorant of the facts. What does everybody else think?

Shek

Disaster response is a bottom up driven process. Unfortunately, the New Orleans response exposed how incompetent NO and LA were. Should the federal government plan its operations on the assumption that local and state governments are criminally incompetent? Where's the planning at the city and state level - yesterday was the first day that I saw air boats being used? Wouldn't you think that a city under sea level would invest some money into rescue boats? Also, as you hand off command to a relieving unit, you give an update on the situation - from what I have gathered, there was nothing of substance provided to federal officials to go on because there was zero command and control. The only assets that would have been worthwhile would have been helicopters (in the DoD inventory) and smaller boats (not in the DoD inventory that I'm aware of), and helicopters were already operating on the day of the levee break and more were flowing in. I don't know the exact flow by day, but I know that we've had the maximum number operating for several days - you can only operate so many due to air space restrictions to prevent accidents of helicopters flying into each other. Has the press asked this question? Nope.

The time to save people was when the forecast for a Cat 4 storm to hit a city below sea level, dry only due to levees designed to withstand a Cat 3 storm, was issued. Instead, NO delayed an evacuation order for 24 hours, didn't implement its own evacuation plan using city assets, sentenced people to death and created the need for the current evacuation efforts from a city with minimal land access.

THL

I am with you on this one, Dale. The more video and photos I see of healthy, young people (especially those with babies and small children now on their shoulders) wading around in water up to their waists, the more irritated and angry I get. There is nothing on earth that would have kept me from getting my daughter the hell out of there. I don't care if it was predicted to be a Cat 3. I have said before, I would have stayed had I been single and daughterless, but the parents that kept their kids there...they have done nothing but shown blatant disregard for their childrens safety and well-being. There is no reason they should have kept those kids there. If I were to put my daughter in this amount of harms way, let's say I go out in a lightning storm with my daughter on my shoulders carrying a metal pole, DCFS would be waiting on my steps for me when I got back. I seriously question these parents family commitments.

The city should have something in place to assist in evacuating the elderly and those that cannot possibly do it themselves. This is not impossible. With one call, Chicago residents can be put on a list and have workers go out to check on the elderly and home-bound during the hot summer months and cold winter months to make sure they have food, water and heat or A/C. If need be, they have the ability to get medical attention to these people or bring them to a shelter or heating/cooling center, depending on the weather. It is not a perfect system and there are some that fall through the cracks, but it works better than what NO had in place.

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Shek

Transportation is easy. Use your existing resources. Use the city buses and bus stops that already exist. Pair up school buses with a city bus and once they are full after running an existing route, evacuate inland to a transfer point/marshalling area where state mobilized assets can take over moving the people to safety. Depending on the city bus routes, it may be even more efficient to have the city bus routes drive to a centralized point in New Orleans to transfer (maybe the school bus farm, or the Greyhound bus station, wherever that is). All this plan requires is a city-state agreement for the state to take on the responsibility of running the inland transfer point and evacuating citizens to a safe location and putting school bus drivers and city bus drivers on call for emergencies and assisting them in their family care plan (how they evacuate their families so they can do their public service job free of worry of their families' safety).

This is not rocket science. This is common sense. New Orleans had the resources, but they didn't have the thought through plan or leadership to make it happen. As soon as the hurricane was tracking towards NO, you should have activated the alert, putting these bus drivers on call so they could implement the evacuation plans for their families. Once a voluntary or mandatory evacuation is called, these drivers are contacted through a chain of command phone tree and required to be at their buses within an hour. Bus supervisors implement the prepared evacuation route plan, make adjustments as necessary due to no shows, and then send the buses out on routes. You pair up a law enforcement official that can prevent people from trying to bring the kitchen sink onto the buses, and then you evacuate those who don't have the means to evacuate themselves. This is too easy. It won't go perfectly smooth, but it will be a heck lot easier than trying to evacuate everyone by helicopter following the storm. At each bus stop, you can have the cop announce the mandatory evacuation notice to get the word out. Offer up magic markers so people can mark their bodies with their social security numbers for identification down the road (used as a motivator to make people realize the choice they are making when they decide not to evacuate).

The last topic is what to allow people to bring - this is easy - if you can fit it in your lap, you can bring. So, a pet cage is fine. A backpack is fine. A garbage bag is fine. A duffel bag is fine. If you can't carry it in your hands or on your back, it won't fit on your lap, and you can't bring it. One of the lessons learned is that many people don't want to leave their pets. The emotional bond for many is just too strong to break. While one can debate the utility and value of an animal's life and a person's life, the reality is that people want to evacuate their pets, so I think it is best to accept the reality that this tragedy has demonstrated and to incorporate this specifically into the plan. To do otherwise is to ignore reality.

Anon

Bluesman- Violation of the Posse Comitatus Act is a criminal offense punishible by up to 2 years in prison and a $10,000 dollar fine.

Now repeat the phrase, "High crimes and misdemeanors" with me.

Why do i bring up that phrase?

Because it's the litmus test for impeachment.

Posse Comitatus exists for a reason, afterall.

THL

The ASPCA could even join the bandwagon and have a plan for animals or those with animals. If caged animals are loaded onto another bus, there would be no problems on the "people" bus (I just have this vision of the little old lady with the parakeet sitting in between the person with the Great Dane and the person with the calico cat). They could all meet up at the designated area.

Julie

I'm not going to argue this......you see what you see. Bush, as well as FEMA, still states that NOBODY anticipated the breach of the levees in a serious storm, which everyone knows caused the most death and destruction. Seems to me Bush has been again, ill-informed of pertinent information.

I have never claimed to be a math professor, but, it seems to me with the major events the US has undertaken, i.e., 9/11, war in Iraq, Katrina....I fail to see how a conservative "smaller government" could handle such major events, successfully.

I could speculate as to blame, and go on to say that given Bush's background, i.e., being unable to run a successful oil business, and screwing his biggest investor, bin laden's family, out of millions of dollars, revenge could have been a cause of the 9/11 attacks. I could further speculate to say that because Saddam placed death contracts on the heads of the Bush family after desert storm was the reason why Bush wanted to invade Iraq, and take the lives of his sons. I could continue on to say that because Mississippi and Alabama had Republican Governors, that they received a better response plan from FEMA than with Louisiana.

If Bush could not successfully run an oil company, do the high prices of gasoline really surprise you? Immediately after he sold his failing oil company he bought the Rangers ball team? He never pursued his military career, but ran his father's presidential campaign that seemed to take him on the road to politics. At this point you have to ask, does this sound like someone with a real purpose or goal in life? Or has he been stumbling through life going into the direction someone is pointing him in?

In conclusion, whatever caused this mess with Katrina -- the Feds will have to pay for it, and it would have costed them a heck of a lot less in the long run if they had just matched the State the funding to finish the proposed levee project that had been approved back in 2001, not to mention creating alot of jobs for the many improverished in Louisiana.

In any event, we could just suffice all of the above to say that if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his **** when he hopped either. And I say that with a big

THL

Here are excerpts from a story I just read. A link to the entire story is also provided.

As much as I am elated that these children were able to be brought back with their parents ( a miracle in itself, really) I am equally outraged.

First, what on earth were these people thinking? Why would they stay with all those kids? They decided they would evacuate by helicopter after 4 days?! This is a decision that they should have made in the few days leading up to Katrina. These kids could have been killed. With all the lunatics wandering around down there in the past few days, anything could have happened to a group of babies walking aound alone with a 6 year old as a guardian.

Second, if these kids were put on a helicopter and flown off, who was flying that helicopter and how did the kids end up wandering the streets? Where were they originally suppose to go to and how did that plan get cancelled?

This could have all been avoided had the parents EVACUATED when told to.

Anon

The improved Levee system wouldn't have protected NO...it was still not designed to handle a Cat 4 storm.

Indeed the levee that was most thoroughly breeched was the ONLY levee that had been completely upgraded by the Army Corps of Engineers.

Besides, we've known for literally DECADES that the levee system was inadequate.

Where was Bill Clinton, or LBJ, or JFK in all this? How do they get a free pass for not acting on this mess decades ago?

How about the La State gov't? It is afterall THEIR state, is it not?

Dreadnought

I think if blame has to be given then it should be given at the state level : ie the mayor and the governor. If im not mistaken the Federal government cant step in until the state asks it to do so and not before. So anybody that blames Bush for this atrocity should first blame the mayor of NO and the governor of LA as well. Bushs team comes last as to blame as they can only react to the governors request for help irregardless of what has happened it still must follow the chain of command. Sorry friends but if i was notified of even a cat 3 hurricane was coming in a city that sits well below sea level days ahead of time i wouldnt hesitate to find a way to evac my family post haste to a much safer location at any cost immediately. Given the fact that alot of the poor couldnt get out the mayor and the governor should have raised the red flag well before the time that they chose to do so. If im not mistaken almost every state in the union has a milicia or national guard unit that belongs to the state and is under the full control of the governor that could have atleast helped assist people who needed them. By not doing this they put alot of helpless people at risk and we all can see the results. All they did was feed the fire against Bush and try to remove themselves from any blame on every news channel. Cant say I think thats fair at all. Its very unfortunate what has happened to these people but to blame your president for it and not anybody else is just wrong and in my opinion misinformed. Sorry if I differ in my opinion. But if Bush has to take the fall for this then the mayor and the governor should fall first and lets put blame where it belongs "In Order" not in a political preference.

Shek

Increased funding would have meant more money thrown into a levee system that wasn't designed to withstand a Cat 4 hurricane, which Katrina was when it hit land. You still would have had a levee failure, flooding in NO, and the same sack of sh!t handed to FEMA by NO and LA. Preventive medicine is always cheaper - but the mayor of NO ignored facts - 72 hours to evacuate, a levee system that couldn't handle the forecasted hurricane that was tracking directly at his city. Instead, he delayed a decision to announce a mandatory evacuation when he was already within the required window to evacuate, he failed to follow his city's plan to evacuate those without transportation, and then he's been trying to pin his failures onto everyone else. FEMA's response should have been more aggressive, although I think you would have had a marginal improvement in results of the rescue effort - the failings at the city and state level were too big to overcome.

Julie

The disaster as a whole was too big for the State to handle alone. That much is obvious, and should have been obvious to the ones with the knowledge to know better.