Souring relations between Pakistan and India

Asim Aquil · 07-28-2005, 14:32 PM

Though from the relations matained between Pakistanis and Indians on WAB would be no indication of this, but relations did improve between India and Pakistan over the past year. Unfortunately things are changing again.

First apparent casualties going to be the Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline. With the US offer for nuclear tech, India might not even opt the pipeline which itself had pushed greatly for.

With that has come down one of India's only interest for peace with Pakistan. Pakistanis had generally believed this peace process was nothing but a recuperation of India's exhausted forces that couldn't invade Pakistan in their attempt in 2002.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/...s/pakistan.php

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan Back then, it was all peace, love and Meera

Quote:

Three months ago the leaders of India and Pakistan, gabbing over cricket, hailed their progress toward peace as irreversible. Kashmiris embraced each other across a disputed frontier for the first time in half a century. And Meera, the Pakistani actress of the celebrated pout, was making waves making movies in India.

Things have since soured considerably.

In recent weeks New Delhi and Islamabad have lobbed accusations on everything from infiltration of militants into the disputed territory of Kashmir to the safety of nuclear arsenals to the fate of the continuing peace talks.

Here in Pakistan, there is growing impatience at what is seen as Indian recalcitrance just to discuss, let alone to resolve, the issue of Kashmir, and more than a little resentment over Washington's agreement last week to share nuclear technology with India.

Across the border, Indian leaders wonder aloud whether continued guerrilla attacks, which they say are backed by Pakistan, will derail the peace negotiations. The disclosure that one of the London bomb suspects may have spent time at a militant training camp here also has prompted Pakistan's critics - not least, India - to speak out anew about what is seen as Pakistan's accommodation of Islamic militancy.

Split at the end of British rule in 1947, India and Pakistan have always had a topsy-turvy relationship, fluctuating between extreme euphoria and enmity. Today, in many ways, things are as normal as they ever get. Flights are packed. Trucks began ferrying chickens and tomatoes across the border at Wagah this week. A 20-month-old cease-fire still holds on the Line of Control that cuts through Kashmir. And officials from both sides have publicly pledged to continue peace talks as scheduled.

Still, foreign diplomats and South Asia analysts are worried about the slow corrosion.

One casualty of the growing tension may be a natural gas pipeline proposed to run from Iran through Pakistan to India, an ambitious project that could bind India and Pakistan together as never before.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India suggested last week that the project had "many risks." Pakistani officials shrugged off the concern and vowed to carry on discussions with Iran anyway. And Indian and Pakistani officials responsible for the talks took pains to say they would continue as planned.

Musharraf has come under new scrutiny since the bombings in London on July 7, with critics here and abroad questioning his desire and ability to rein in radicals. He has also been denounced by hard-liners in Islamabad for what they consider his cozying up to the West.

By far the sharpest exchanges have come over nuclear safety. On his visit to Washington last week, Singh questioned Pakistan's ability to guard its nuclear weapons arsenal from what he called jihadi elements.

"The security of assets which are under control of Pakistan, I think, does worry us," Singh said in a CNN interview July 21.

Two days after Singh's comments, Pakistan's president, General Pervez Musharraf, offered an arch retort. "No one has a right to speculate about the effectiveness and reliability of Pakistan's command and control structure, which predates those in its neighborhood," he said.

India, like Pakistan, has refused to sign global nonproliferation agreements, and the U.S. deal to help India expand its nuclear program is a marked departure from longstanding U.S. policy - a gesture that is not expected to be made for Pakistan.

Washington's widening friendship with India shows the potential to overshadow its longstanding alliance with Pakistan, heightening the mistrust between the two neighbors.

"My concern is that the deterioration in India-Pakistan relations (slow, but sure), plus Musharraf's very weak position in Pakistan, could lead to a new crisis, or crises," Stephen Cohen, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, wrote in an e-mail exchange. "India might expect the U.S. to back it, we might feel nervous, and again try to play the role of broker, a lot of things could happen, most of them bad."

Secret talks between high-level Indian and Pakistani officials continue, but whether they will yield anything soon remains to be seen. The next round of talks is scheduled for August; the subject of nuclear safeguards is on the agenda.

In Kashmir, the abiding source of India-Pakistan troubles, violence has been on a steady, savage rise in recent weeks, with Indian troops and suspected militants clashing nearly daily for the last several days.

On July 19, for instance, a family of six was killed by suspected insurgents, and Indian soldiers killed four men whom they identified as members of a Pakistan-based militant group. The next day, a car bomb exploded in front of an Indian Army convoy in Srinagar, the capital of the Indian-held part of Kashmir.

Early Sunday, Indian soldiers shot and killed three young Kashmiri men whom they said they had mistaken for guerrillas. The incident sparked two days of protests. It also prompted Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Kashmir's chief Sunni Muslim cleric, who leads a coalition of separatist groups that has been pressing for a meeting with Singh, to question whether talks could continue while Indian troops committed what he called "genocide of Kashmir Muslims."

Musharraf, for his part, has taken what many here considered a radical, post-Sept. 11 step by disavowing jihad in Kashmir. Privately, foreign diplomats question whether his military agrees with him, and they say training camps for guerrillas going to Kashmir continue to operate on Pakistani territory.

As for Meera, she made her movie in Bombay, but it is banned in Pakistan.

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan Back then, it was all peace, love and Meera.

Three months ago the leaders of India and Pakistan, gabbing over cricket, hailed their progress toward peace as irreversible. Kashmiris embraced each other across a disputed frontier for the first time in half a century. And Meera, the Pakistani actress of the celebrated pout, was making waves making movies in India.

Things have since soured considerably.

In recent weeks New Delhi and Islamabad have lobbed accusations on everything from infiltration of militants into the disputed territory of Kashmir to the safety of nuclear arsenals to the fate of the continuing peace talks.

Here in Pakistan, there is growing impatience at what is seen as Indian recalcitrance just to discuss, let alone to resolve, the issue of Kashmir, and more than a little resentment over Washington's agreement last week to share nuclear technology with India.

Across the border, Indian leaders wonder aloud whether continued guerrilla attacks, which they say are backed by Pakistan, will derail the peace negotiations. The disclosure that one of the London bomb suspects may have spent time at a militant training camp here also has prompted Pakistan's critics - not least, India - to speak out anew about what is seen as Pakistan's accommodation of Islamic militancy.

Split at the end of British rule in 1947, India and Pakistan have always had a topsy-turvy relationship, fluctuating between extreme euphoria and enmity. Today, in many ways, things are as normal as they ever get. Flights are packed. Trucks began ferrying chickens and tomatoes across the border at Wagah this week. A 20-month-old cease-fire still holds on the Line of Control that cuts through Kashmir. And officials from both sides have publicly pledged to continue peace talks as scheduled.

Still, foreign diplomats and South Asia analysts are worried about the slow corrosion.

One casualty of the growing tension may be a natural gas pipeline proposed to run from Iran through Pakistan to India, an ambitious project that could bind India and Pakistan together as never before.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India suggested last week that the project had "many risks." Pakistani officials shrugged off the concern and vowed to carry on discussions with Iran anyway. And Indian and Pakistani officials responsible for the talks took pains to say they would continue as planned.

Musharraf has come under new scrutiny since the bombings in London on July 7, with critics here and abroad questioning his desire and ability to rein in radicals. He has also been denounced by hard-liners in Islamabad for what they consider his cozying up to the West.

By far the sharpest exchanges have come over nuclear safety. On his visit to Washington last week, Singh questioned Pakistan's ability to guard its nuclear weapons arsenal from what he called jihadi elements.

"The security of assets which are under control of Pakistan, I think, does worry us," Singh said in a CNN interview July 21.

Two days after Singh's comments, Pakistan's president, General Pervez Musharraf, offered an arch retort. "No one has a right to speculate about the effectiveness and reliability of Pakistan's command and control structure, which predates those in its neighborhood," he said.

India, like Pakistan, has refused to sign global nonproliferation agreements, and the U.S. deal to help India expand its nuclear program is a marked departure from longstanding U.S. policy - a gesture that is not expected to be made for Pakistan.

Washington's widening friendship with India shows the potential to overshadow its longstanding alliance with Pakistan, heightening the mistrust between the two neighbors.

"My concern is that the deterioration in India-Pakistan relations (slow, but sure), plus Musharraf's very weak position in Pakistan, could lead to a new crisis, or crises," Stephen Cohen, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, wrote in an e-mail exchange. "India might expect the U.S. to back it, we might feel nervous, and again try to play the role of broker, a lot of things could happen, most of them bad."

Secret talks between high-level Indian and Pakistani officials continue, but whether they will yield anything soon remains to be seen. The next round of talks is scheduled for August; the subject of nuclear safeguards is on the agenda.

In Kashmir, the abiding source of India-Pakistan troubles, violence has been on a steady, savage rise in recent weeks, with Indian troops and suspected militants clashing nearly daily for the last several days.

On July 19, for instance, a family of six was killed by suspected insurgents, and Indian soldiers killed four men whom they identified as members of a Pakistan-based militant group. The next day, a car bomb exploded in front of an Indian Army convoy in Srinagar, the capital of the Indian-held part of Kashmir.

Early Sunday, Indian soldiers shot and killed three young Kashmiri men whom they said they had mistaken for guerrillas. The incident sparked two days of protests. It also prompted Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Kashmir's chief Sunni Muslim cleric, who leads a coalition of separatist groups that has been pressing for a meeting with Singh, to question whether talks could continue while Indian troops committed what he called "genocide of Kashmir Muslims."

Musharraf, for his part, has taken what many here considered a radical, post-Sept. 11 step by disavowing jihad in Kashmir. Privately, foreign diplomats question whether his military agrees with him, and they say training camps for guerrillas going to Kashmir continue to operate on Pakistani territory.

As for Meera, she made her movie in Bombay, but it is banned in Pakistan.

brownboi4eva · 07-28-2005, 14:45 PM

We tried to invade Pakistan in 2002? Thats news to me, credible links with citations please....cuzz im sure if we did Pakistan would be a junkyard by now

Asim Aquil · 07-28-2005, 14:57 PM

GOOGLE, "Decisive Action" Vajpayee 2002

GOOGLE, india pakistan 2002 standoff

Hahaha, India CANNOT invade Pakistan. I seriously believe the pattern suggests, that India's going to try again, its going to search for an excuse or make one if there won't be any. Pakistan should be preparing for war and be ready to take preventive measures if India uses Baglihar as a weapon again. It already tested its effects out a few weeks back when it used the opportunity to flood Pakistan.

All of this is just speculation, but better safe than sorry.

btw, Brown, "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" -- Friedrich Nietzsche. I used that quote recently, in a letter to a Pakistani Feudal Lord.

vicky007 · 07-28-2005, 15:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Though from the relations matained between Pakistanis and Indians on WAB would be no indication of this, but relations did improve between India and Pakistan over the past year. Unfortunately things are changing again.

First apparent casualties going to be the Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline. With the US offer for nuclear tech, India might not even opt the pipeline which itself had pushed greatly for.

With that has come down one of India's only interest for peace with Pakistan. Pakistanis had generally believed this peace process was nothing but a recuperation of India's exhausted forces that couldn't invade Pakistan in their attempt in 2002.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/...s/pakistan.php

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan Back then, it was all peace, love and Meera

The situation has changed because Pakistan was all along just waiting for the snow in the Himalayas to melt and summer to come for TERRORIST Rats to infiltrate into india.The Paksitani forces true to its Dubious nature is pushing the Terrorists into Indian Territory and the number of Infiltration attempts have suddenly gone up in the past 4 weeks.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=51559

Regarding the Indo Iranian Pipieline, the less said about it the better, not only would it be a security and economic nightmare for India (what with the balochis and Bugtis having a free hand with the Sabotage) but also the project cost has increased to 7 Billion $ tossing the economics of the pipleline out of the window.

As for the Indian forces Recuperating and other such junk, well it has been pakistan's secret wish to see the Indian Forces "exhausted" (Part of the Original bleeding India through a thousand cut strategy), well that will always remain a Dream. Its has been more then 16 Yrs (since 1989 )and Pakistani's have been dreaming of the imminent exhaustion of Indian forces and easy take over of kashmir, but even after 16 yrs the Army is going strong, the indian army is as vigilant as ever before and through input of Technology been successful in killing an increasing number of the Civilian targetting terrorists.

Asim Aquil · 07-28-2005, 17:15 PM

Whats that word.... oh yeah.. Anywayyyyyyyyy

India's U-Turn from the Peace Process now seems imminent. It's got nothing to gain from peace any more, it will not carry it on just for Pakistan's benefit. A couple days ago India violated the cease-fire but it was soon brought under control, nothing serious. But that can all change soon and Pakistan should be prepared for the eventuality.

vicky007 · 07-28-2005, 17:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Whats that word.... oh yeah.. Anywayyyyyyyyy

India's U-Turn from the Peace Process now seems imminent. It's got nothing to gain from peace any more, it will not carry it on just for Pakistan's benefit. A couple days ago India violated the cease-fire but it was soon brought under control, nothing serious. But that can all change soon and Pakistan should be prepared for the eventuality.

Correction, its Pakistan which has violated the cease-fire twice.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_3240121.htm

Its not India which is doing the U-Turn , it was always clear what to expect from pakistan and is behaving accordingly.

Asim Aquil · 07-28-2005, 21:59 PM

Regardless about what India might claim, Pakistan should prepare itself for another 2002-like attempt.

brownboi4eva · 07-29-2005, 02:23 AM

omg stop bickering like infants....Truth is one side fires and the other one replies, they both report it in and both governments make allegations...nobody is a victim here.... secondly we didnt try and invade you, that would be sending our troops over the border...

if you want to discuss what would happend in a conventional war between India and Pak please pm me, should be interesting...

Lastly, India has been the peaceful one, please dont tell us we are the war mongers..i dont want to open up the history books

JASOOS VIJAY · 07-29-2005, 04:44 AM

If India wanted to invade pureland than there would have been no pureland at all

. So pakistani stop ur cheap talk. U dont get ur lessons even after 1971. Forgotten or what how ur coward army surrendered & that too whole 90000 of them

lemontree · 07-29-2005, 07:40 AM

As long as Pakistan supports the jihadi solution, there will be no peace.

Asim Aquil · 07-29-2005, 08:29 AM

Comments from the Indian Prime Minister said that he would take decisive action against Pakistan in 2002. Nothing happened, the stayed at the border for 10 months, pussied out, went home.

lemontree · 07-29-2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Comments from the Indian Prime Minister said that he would take decisive action against Pakistan in 2002. Nothing happened, the stayed at the border for 10 months, pussied out, went home.

You should be greatful for his mercy.

Lord General · 07-29-2005, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Comments from the Indian Prime Minister said that he would take decisive action against Pakistan in 2002. Nothing happened, the stayed at the border for 10 months, pussied out, went home.

Asim, that was Vajpayee's decision, and his decision alone. There is a new Prime Minister now, who is very intelligent. He knows his countries capabilities; there will be no army men just standing on the border, if 2002 repeats itself, then the soldiers will cross into Pakistan terrority. By the way, there is a new Chief of military too...

As soon as Manmohan took the posiiton, he realized the idiot Vajpayee's decisiion on the show for the world to see (the 150 000) soldiers on the border: he knew that was idiotic, that is why he chose to send almost half of them home or back to their bases elsewhere. India does not need close to 100 000 soldiers to fight pakistan, let alone 150 000 LOL.

Asim, Pakistan and India are not equals. You know that and I know you understand that.

Asim Aquil · 07-29-2005, 09:37 AM

Military superiority alone does not gaurantee an invasion. We've maintained a minimum credible detterence force, that makes an invasion almost impossible. India wanted to malign Pakistan, and was playing with America's emotions. India would've NEVER chickened out, like they did, if they had America's support. They laid the bait, America said "no bite!".

Yes we're not equals. And yet we won't bow down to the Indian might... Thats the kind of nation we are.

Talk is cheap. Show us some action.

vicky007 · 07-29-2005, 10:13 AM

There was plenty of action in Kargil and what happened is that the PM of Pakistan went begging to US for a Face Saver.

07-28-2005, 14:45 PM	#2 (permalink)
brownboi4eva Patron Join Date: 07-17-05 Posts: 197	We tried to invade Pakistan in 2002? Thats news to me, credible links with citations please....cuzz im sure if we did Pakistan would be a junkyard by now __________________ What doesnt kill me, Just makes me stronger :cool:

07-29-2005, 04:44 AM	#9 (permalink)
JASOOS VIJAY Regular Join Date: 05-23-05 Posts: 121	If India wanted to invade pureland than there would have been no pureland at all . So pakistani stop ur cheap talk. U dont get ur lessons even after 1971. Forgotten or what how ur coward army surrendered & that too whole 90000 of them __________________ EAST OR WEST INDIA IS THE BEST!!!

07-29-2005, 07:40 AM	#10 (permalink)
lemontree Bandaid *Military Professional* Join Date: 10-04-04 Location: India Posts: 5,918	As long as Pakistan supports the jihadi solution, there will be no peace. __________________ Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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07-28-2005, 14:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	GOOGLE, "Decisive Action" Vajpayee 2002 GOOGLE, india pakistan 2002 standoff Hahaha, India CANNOT invade Pakistan. I seriously believe the pattern suggests, that India's going to try again, its going to search for an excuse or make one if there won't be any. Pakistan should be preparing for war and be ready to take preventive measures if India uses Baglihar as a weapon again. It already tested its effects out a few weeks back when it used the opportunity to flood Pakistan. All of this is just speculation, but better safe than sorry. btw, Brown, "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" -- Friedrich Nietzsche. I used that quote recently, in a letter to a Pakistani Feudal Lord.

07-28-2005, 17:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	Whats that word.... oh yeah.. Anywayyyyyyyyy India's U-Turn from the Peace Process now seems imminent. It's got nothing to gain from peace any more, it will not carry it on just for Pakistan's benefit. A couple days ago India violated the cease-fire but it was soon brought under control, nothing serious. But that can all change soon and Pakistan should be prepared for the eventuality.

07-28-2005, 21:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	Regardless about what India might claim, Pakistan should prepare itself for another 2002-like attempt.

07-29-2005, 02:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
brownboi4eva Patron Join Date: 07-17-05 Posts: 197	omg stop bickering like infants....Truth is one side fires and the other one replies, they both report it in and both governments make allegations...nobody is a victim here.... secondly we didnt try and invade you, that would be sending our troops over the border... if you want to discuss what would happend in a conventional war between India and Pak please pm me, should be interesting... Lastly, India has been the peaceful one, please dont tell us we are the war mongers..i dont want to open up the history books

07-29-2005, 08:29 AM	#11 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	Comments from the Indian Prime Minister said that he would take decisive action against Pakistan in 2002. Nothing happened, the stayed at the border for 10 months, pussied out, went home.

07-29-2005, 09:37 AM	#14 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	Military superiority alone does not gaurantee an invasion. We've maintained a minimum credible detterence force, that makes an invasion almost impossible. India wanted to malign Pakistan, and was playing with America's emotions. India would've NEVER chickened out, like they did, if they had America's support. They laid the bait, America said "no bite!". Yes we're not equals. And yet we won't bow down to the Indian might... Thats the kind of nation we are. Talk is cheap. Show us some action.

07-29-2005, 10:13 AM	#15 (permalink)
vicky007 Banished Join Date: 06-10-05 Location: Pittsburgh,USA Posts: 703	There was plenty of action in Kargil and what happened is that the PM of Pakistan went begging to US for a Face Saver.

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