entropy

If EurOstrich wants to do something about it, they will have to do more than ask friendly.

Until then, Tibet is China.

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If memory serves...

Tangyiying

yes, this is the point!

Just find a map before 1949 when PRC was established, published by British or anyone else. The Tibet is part of China on any of such maps.

This brings the question that one has to ask, Was the Dalai Lama's regime legitimate itself?

I am afraid the answer is no. When the Tibet Dalai lama regime declared its independence after Qing dynasty fell. NO A Single Country recognised it! It remained part of then ROC and the ROC( now Taiwan) never declares abandonment of its sovereinty over Tibet.

The Dalai Lama regime was even not recognised by its own people, the clique prosecuted the 9th Panchen Lama because of power struggle, who was later under the asylum of Chinese central government, and strongly advocated a military crushdown on the illegal regime in his hometown.

Should the nationalists were not defeated and able to continue their mandate in China, there would never been an issue called Tibet.

The notion that Tibet was a peaceful independent country which was annexed by the Chinese by force was invented to win tears and supports from those innocent people. So is the "non-violence spiritual leader Dalai lama". I m disgusted everytime i see this publicity stunt.

Ray

Could India have intervened when China occupied Tibet? It is a moot point.

One of the major deficiency of Indian politicians then and now, is that they did not nor have military experience (some do have now but are not in any worthwhile position) and nor were they well versed with strategy. They would have read and understood the British “Great Game” only from a historical and political point of view and not the strategic masterstroke played therein and which played a major role in shoring up the British Empire in general and British India in particular.

If the Indian politicians had military experience and understood strategy, then they may have acted with alacrity and stalled the Chinese.

But then, there were the other issues.

The Indian Army was reorganising after independence. It was totally employed in riot control and exchange of population and then followed the Kashmir War. Therefore, militarily, there possibly were not enough troops to go around for the defence of India, let alone embarking on expeditions in Tibet.

It must also be remembered that the UN deliberated over Kashmir and the UN resolution was passed on 13 August 1948. Ignoring the basic issue of the UN resolution of 13 Aug 1948, that Pakistan should vacate the aggression first, the Security Council passed numerous resolutions and appointed a number of mediators and negotiators, but as their proposals went across the position held by India and recognized by the Security Council all these proposals failed. First came the proposals from Mr MC Naughten of Canada, followed by those of Sir Owen Dixon. Dr Graham laboured from 1950 to 1953 to find a solution to the holding of a plebiscite. But since Pakistan was not willing to withdraw its troops from the territory occupied by it, the missions failed.

Therefore, one can take it that the Indian Army was poised for war till as late as 1953.


And yet, China could have been confronted when on October 8, 1950, China officially entered the Korean War. The armistice was signed on July 27, 1953.

China possibly would not have been able to have a two front war.

On May 20-22, 1953 at New Delhi John Foster Dulles, the then Secretary of State, met Prime Minister Nehru and senior Indian officials with a ‘us or them’ proposal. India, at that time basking in the euphoria of being free, naturally, shied away from the idea of having to play second fiddle or be under domination. And thus, West was lost.

And so even at this late stage, India could not take the step to go in the defence of Tibet.

And, of course, Nehru was a pacifist and was more concerned about international opinion about a country steeped in Gandhian philosophy. He and India could not lose face!

Therefore, was it a case of:

1. Missed opportunities.
2. Lack of military experience and strategic insight.
3. Unable to free troops with the ongoing uncertainties in Kashmir.
4. Odd turn of events that were mismatched to appeal to India’s newly acquired sensibilities.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

A Chronology of Tibetan History

602 Namri Songtsen, lord of Yarlung, becomes the first king of Tibet.
620-49 Reign of King Songsten Gampo; Tibet grows into an empire.
670 Prolonged warfare between Tibet and Tang China begins.
763 Tibet captures Changan, the Tang capital; tribute paid to Tibet. Tibetan king invites Buddhist teachers from India and China.
792 Exponents of Indian and Chinese Buddhism debate at Samye monastery.
821 China-Tibet Peace Treaty: "Tibetans shall be happy in Tibet and Chinese shall be happy in China".
842 King Langdarma assassinated; Tibet splits into several states.
1073 Sakya monastery founded; start of Red Hat sect of Tibetan Buddhism.
1206 Chingis Khan elected first ruler of united Mongol clans.
1234 Mongols led by Ogodai Khagan defeat Junchen and conquer north China.
1247 Grand Lama of Sakya submits to Mongols; beginning of priest/patron relationship between lama and khan.
1261 Tibet reunited with the Grand Lama of Sakya as king.
1279 Final defeat of Sung by Mongols; Mongol conquest of China complete.
1350 King Changchub Gyaltsen ousts Sakya and founds a new secular dynasty.
1368 China regains its independence from the Mongols under Ming dynasty.
1409 Tibetan monk Tsongkhapa founds the Gelugpa (or Yellow Hat) sect.
1578 Gelugpa leader receives the title of "Dalai Lama" from Altan Khan.
1640 Gushri Khan, leader of Qoshot Mongols, invades and conquers Tibet.
1642 Gushri Khan enthrones the 5th Dalai Lama as temporal ruler of Tibet.
1644 Manchu overthrow Ming, conquer China, and establish the Qing dynasty.
1653 "Great Fifth" Dalai Lama meets Qing Emperor Shunzhi near Beijing.
1682 Fifth Dalai Lama dies; death is concealed for the next 14 years.
1717 Dzungar Mongols invade Tibet and sack Lhasa; 5th DL's tomb looted.
1720 Qing forces drive out Dzungars and install Kesang Gyatso as 7th DL.
1721 Qing emperor declares Tibet a tributary state; first Ambans sent.
1724 A Qing territorial government is created for Kokonor (Amdo).
1792 Qing troops enter Tibet to drive out Gorkha (Nepalese) invaders. A ban on visitation by non-Chinese foreigners is imposed.
1854-56 Nepal defeats Tibet; peace treaty requires Tibet to pay tribute.
1904 British troops under Colonel Younghusband enter Tibet & occupy Lhasa.
1910-12 A Qing army led by General Zhao Erfeng invades and occupies Tibet.
1911 The Urga Living Buddha proclaims the independence of Mongolia.
1912 Last Qing emperor abdicates; Republic of China claims Mongolia, Tibet.
1913 Dalai Lama proclaims Tibet independent; paper money and coins issued.
Mongolia and Tibet conclude a treaty of mutual recognition.
1914 Britain and Tibet agree to McMahon Line in a treaty signed in Simla.
1915 Three way treaty between Russia, China, and Mongolia signed at Khiakta.
1918 Tibetan army, led by British-trained officers, defeats Chinese army.
Tibet and China sign a peace treaty; China refuses to ratify treaty.
1919-21 Mongolia occupied by a pro-Japanese faction of the Chinese army.
1921 Ungern Sternberg's White Russians oust Chinese and conquer Mongolia.
Soviet army and pro-Soviet Mongols drive Whitesout of Mongolia.
1921 Soviets recognise Mongolia with Living Buddha restored as monarch.
1924 Mongolian People's Republic proclaimed; Urga is renamed Ulan Bator.
1928 Chiang Kaishek defeats the northern warlords and reunites China.
1931 Tibet gains territory in fighting with China; truce is signed.
1933 13th Dalai Lama dies; Reting Rimpoche selected as Tibetan regent.
1937 Britain publishes Simla Convention and begins enforcing McMahon Line.
1940 14th Dalai Lama is enthroned; Chinese delegation attends ceremony.
1941 Unable to keep vow of celibacy, Reting is replaced as regent by Taktra; the two secretly agree to rotate office between them.
1943 Britain affirms that Tibet is "already self-governing and determined to retain [its] independence".
1946 The Republic of China recognises the Mongolian People's Republic.
1947 British mission in Lhasa transferred to a newly independent India. Reting is arrested for plotting to assassinate Regent Taktra. Former Regent Reting dies in prison, apparently poisoned.
1947-49 Tibetan Trade Mission travels to India, Britain, U.S., and China; the mission is received by the British Prime Minister Attlee.
1949 People's Republic of China is proclaimed by Chinese Communist Party. New Chinese government affirms recognition of Mongolia.
1950 Red China invades Tibet; Tibetan army destroyed in battle at Chamdo.
1951 17 Point Agreement between China and Tibet; Chinese occupy Lhasa.
1955 Kham is detached from Tibet and administered directly by the CCP
1956 Tibetans in Kham and Qinghai (Amdo) begin revolt against CCP rule.
1957 The United States begins to arm the Tibetan resistance via CIA.
1959 Anti-Chinese revolt spreads to Lhasa; 14th Dalai Lama flees to India.
1960 A report by the International Commission of Jurists concludes that,"acts of genocide [have] been committed in Tibet in an attempt to destroy the Tibetans as a religious group."
1962 China-India War: China advances beyond McMahon Line, then withdraws.
1963 The Tibetan Government-in-Exile writes a democratic constitution for a future liberated Tibet.
1965 China sets up Tibet Autonomous Region in U'Tsang and western Kham.
1966-69 Cultural Revolution: Red Guards rampage destroys most Tibetan temples.
1969 Fighting among Red Guard factions; PLA intervenes to restore order.
1971 The United States cuts off military aid to the Tibetan resistance.
1974 Nepal forces the Tibetan resistance to leave its base in Mustang.
1979 China allows delegation from Government-in-exileto visit Tibet.
1980 CCP General Secretary Hu Yaobang visits Tibet and promises to "restore the Tibetan economy to its pre-1959 level."
1982 Solzhenitsyn calls the CCP regime in Tibet "more brutal and inhuman than any other communist regime in the world."
1987 Police fire on a massive pro-independence demonstration in Lhasa.
1988 Qiao Shi, China's security chief, visits Tibet and vows to "adopt a policy of merciless repression".
Speaking in Strasbourg, the Dalai Lama makes a "five point" peace plan for a Tibet within China.
1989 Dalai Lama receives Nobel Peace Prize; martial law imposed in Tibet.
1992 China declares Tibet "open" to foreign investment.
Chen Kuiyuan is named CCP leader for Tibet and calls for a purge of those party members who "act as internal agents of the Dalai Lama clique".
1993 Residents of Lhasa protest against price increases and the charging of fees for formally free medical services.
1994 Potala Palace, DL's traditional residence, is restored and reopened.
1995 China denounces the six-year old boy recognised by the Dalai Lama as the 11th Panchen Lama, and imposes its own candidate.
1996 China bans the displaying of photographs of the Dalai Lama.

Herodotus

Good post Ray,

These are key dates here. There is an article I read called "Tibet in Tang's Grand Strategy" by Denis Twitchett in the book Warfare in Chinese History:

Warfare in Chinese History - Google Book Search

Where China's claim on Tibet goes back over a thousand years; for good or for ill. During some of that time Tibet was the aggressor against China. So maybe the situation is more complex than it appears.

Deltacamelately

And what will be that? Invade PRC? Or may be set up couple of base camps in Nepal and India and arm and abbette the Tibetan Insurgents?

__________________
I am the DARK that Rise to Kill..And Soar to Redeem!

Davis_Chan

When PLA entered Tibet in 1951, there was no country argue with that. Because at that moment it is the common sense that Tibet belong to China.

Why things is different nowadays? because some people seems lacking the historical knowledge and their cognition was distorted by the media.

I always feel strange that why some people believe Tibet was an indepence country. Truth is crystal clear when people open the historical books.

Plus: only listenning to what Dala lama's saying is not fair-and-square, people who want to find out the truth should listen to other opinions, only by doing that could we map the turth out.

__________________
It was when the Great Way declined,that human kindness and morality arose.
It was when intelligence and knowledge appeared,that the Great Artifice began.

Ray

[quote]British maps indicate that Tibet is a part of China?

That is news.

A bit of refreshing done of history would totally reveal that the Dalai Lama was totally legitimate.

The Qing dynasty conquered Tibet, Xinjiang and a part of Russia. But that does not mean it is a part of Tibet, more so when the Qing dynasty collapsed and the Emperor abdicated.

By that token, UK can claim that it is still a part of Britain!

Though much can be written on this, but let us use the Communist Chinese phraseology - it is an internal matter of Tibet!

Who were the nationalists? The Qing dynasty and to use a Communist phraseology - the running digs of Qing?

Really?

Ray

Not quite.

The legatee of the British was in no position to act because they were in Kashmir and the West was too occupied recovering from the devastation of the World War.

UK was under a Labour govt. Had Churchill been there, the situation would have been different.

A fait accompli that none did anything.

gunnut

Are there any "legal" annexations?

__________________
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

Tangyiying

well, it could be news to Indians

Reasoning? or do you Indians have different definition of legitimacy?

Well, when Britain conquered India in old times when conquering was regarded legal by the so called “civilized world”. India did was part of Britain empire. So the Tibet which was conquered by the Qing was no questionable part of Qing Empire. We should be clear at this point.
When the Qing Empire collapsed, the successor ROC had the legitimacy to inherent Qing’s territory and all its property according to the international laws by then. This includes the rule over Tibet. The dalai regime was merely rebellion in the eyes of ROC. It by no means was a legitimate government..

well, the ROC local government of Tibet which should be co-led by Panchen Lama and Dalai Lama was overthrown and Panchen was droven out by the Dalai, it became an internal matter of Republic of China.

Nationalists was the ruling party of ROC. It cooperated quite well with British till Chiang Kai Shek the head of KMT met Ghandi secretly that turned the British aganist China by restarting their war in Tibet.

no?

Ray

[quote]And so is it to the world!



Not quite in the same way as the PRC maybe, where legitimacy is decided by the Party!!



What is in the eyes of the ROC is in their eyes.

It does not make it the truth!



Good.

What else is the internal matter of China?


Really?



No.

entropy

Cuba-style economic pressure.

Tangyiying

I actually very much hope this could be done. and that gives China all reasons to revenge. And, I hope they boycotted the Olympics successfully, the increasing anti-west sentiment within China would be boiling, the PRC should do what it feels right to do. The current government is too mild and does koutou to the West bastards. It should shows its backbones and to reach its own hegemony.


I m even bothered to give you a link of maps which a google search could do all the way for u.

Really?

What is in the eyes of Indian regime is in their eyes, it does not make its crushdown on Maoist freedom fighters justified.

Do you think this kinda bickering interesting?

I understand Indians are keen on seeing Tibet be an independent country. They want a buffer state between them and China. And, most importantly, should their treaty with the illegal Tibet regime be invalid, their claims over the stolen lands south to the imfamous McMahon Line will go up to the smoke. I could understand you, Ray has all pro-Tibet in exile posts there. I m just bored with the bickering. I am a bit surprised such bickering is not suspended by the mods. THe forum I used to be imposes much stricter rules. Anyway, I feel more freedom and I m gonna to loving arguing with ppls here.

Officer of Engineers

As long as you keep hitting each other with facts instead of insults or complete myths, we have no issues. Be advised that people do get heated under the collar here.

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Chimo