Shek

The partisan fight over this has actually gotten quite entertaining:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/

Beyond that, the story is pure entertainment value. Yesterday the Senate Democrats tried to revoke Karl Rove's security clearance; every Senate Democrat joined in the [] measure. Bill Frist responded by introducing an amendment to revoke the security clearances of Harry Reid and Dick Durbin, for improperly disclosing the contents of FBI reports, in Reid's case on a judicial nominee and in Durbin's on Guantanamo Bay.

I think it would have been funnier if the Republicans had tried to revoke Ted Kennedy's driver's license.

With luck, the Plame affair will continue to enertain us through the dog days of summer.

To be fair, since Bush 43 does have a DUI on his record (although he didn't have a passenger in the car that died or run off a bridge), the Democrats could respond in kind.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...1257-9887r.htm

The partisan fight over Karl Rove exploded onto the Senate floor yesterday, with Democrats trying to strip him of his security clearance and Republicans retaliating by trying to strip the chamber's two top Democrats of theirs.
The moves, which came as amendments to a spending bill, both failed, but not before each side blamed the other for "juvenile" behavior and for poisoning a well of good feelings they said had existed in the past few weeks.
Some senators said the entire exercise was wrong.
"There might be a contest between which of these amendments is more poorly drafted," said Sen. Jeff Sessions, Alabama Republican, who voted against both amendments.
"We should not be doing this. This is exactly why the American public holds Congress in such low esteem right now," said Sen. Susan Collins, Maine Republican, who also opposed both.

highsea

Absolutely, if it can be shown that he broke the law. But it's not looking like he was the one that spilled the beans, and the media is obviously out for blood purely for partisan political reasons. The NYT, WAPost, et al, could care less about the CIA- this story is just another example of their severely slanted take on reality.

Furthermore, Wilson should be behind bars for going directly to the NYT after returning from an obviously classified assignment (even though he lied about who sent him, it was still a CIA sponsored trip). Novak should be held accountable for printing Plame's name, if indeed she was an undercover agent at the time (and it doesn't appear she was). And if Rove outed her for political reasons, of course he should resign or be fired. I just don't believe he did it, and the evidence appears to support his version of events.

Wilson's own online biography mentioned her by name, BTW, so it wasn't really much of a secret. Apparently Rove was one of the few people in Washington who didn't know her by name.

But like Dale, I am enjoying the debacle tremendously. I just love to watch the media self-destruct and destroy the miniscule and marginal credibility they have managed to retain. And I have to confess, I am pleased to see Wilson exposed for the partisan hack he is.

Shek- "I think it would have been funnier if the Republicans had tried to revoke Ted Kennedy's driver's license."

Now that really would be in the public interest...

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Broken

Sorry, but Fitzgerald specifically said he was not investigating the whistleblower (Wilson), but those who retaliated against the whistleblower.
What are you smoking today, Dale? Perhaps you can point out my "heartfelt rhetoric". Also, you should read the very first post on this thread if you think "hedging" is creeping into my posts. I am simply presenting some information you might not be aware of from reading the RNC talking points repeated on all your favorite websites.
Dale, SOMEONE outed Plame. The path appears to connect to a classifed State Dept memo which was circulated in the administration at the time of Wilson's article. Grand Jury investigations are not launched without due cause and they are not launched at the whim of the Democrats. The CIA asked the Justice department to investigate. Enough had been found to launch the Grand Jury.

Will anyone be indicted? Who knows, but as I said from the very beginning, Rove would be hard to bring down, responsible or not. Nevertheless, this episode does not help the Admins credibility. As the NRO said today,

This may turn out to be a case of errors of judgment, not of malice. Rove may have played a role in the disclosure of a covert operative’s name (although right now we do not even know that). Even if that disclosure ultimately had no great effect on national security and even if it was inadvertent, a White House official should know better. White House spokesman Scott McClellan, meanwhile, has made misleading statements about Rove’s involvement in this case. We do not know whether those statements were deliberately misleading or uninformed.

What is ironic about this is the Admin's position that they were responding to the CIA's attempt to undermine the justification for the war on Iraq. In otherwords, the CIA was saying the WMD claims were bogus. Didn't we just have an investigation which concluded that the CIA was responsible for the false conclusion that Iraq had WMD?

So the CIA is responsible for the false WMD info (letting the admin off the hook), yet they are also responsible for undermining that very same info (through Wilson)? The Bush admin can't have it both ways.

Shek

Wasn't my idea - it was the Powerline author's idea, but I did find it funny.

highsea

You call Wilson a "whistleblower"? Lol, that's a good one- his report didn't prove anything, he fabricated the reason he even went to Niger, even the CIA said his findings supported the yellowcake story, and that not one single analyst changed his opinion because of Wilson's report.

Wilson claimed to have proven that some documents were forgeries, yet those documents didn't enter into intelligence channels until some 8 months later. The British to this day still stand behind their claim that Iraq was indeed trying to get uranium from Africa, even the President of Niger admitted that much!

You can't legitimize his going to the media by calling him a "whistleblower"- all he was doing was acting as a tool for the Kerry campaign.
George Tenet was in charge of the CIA, not Valerie Plame. Wilson claimed that he was sent on Cheney's and Tenet's authority, but we now know this was a lie. Not an example of the CIA undermining anything, just a loose cannon in the form of Valerie Plame deciding to take matters into her own hands, which is why: Thank God...

Amled

Can it be said that unless they actually find a “smoking gun” like a signed notarised document or the like, that Rove will remain? After all Bush is to all intents and purposes a lame duck president, and therefore if he sticks by his friend through hell and high water, he really has nothing to loose as he can’t run for a 3rd. term anyway.
As for the media circus.
It may be the summer heat and humidity, which I am told is pretty intense in the vicinity of the Potomac this time of year.

__________________
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Shek

Summer scandals are bad, especially once Congress recesses, as there is nothing else to divert attention.

What I find interesting is that Rove signed the release of confidentiality waiver over 18 months ago, which indicates either idiocy or a lack of concern about criminal involvement. I think that there's plenty more facts out there before this is all said and done.

Amled

It's the same over here.
We refer to it as the silly season!

Broken

This simply is not true. The CIA and State department conclusions were that there was minimal risk of Niger uranium being sold to Iraq.

Wilson said that Iraq had contacted some minor Niger officials about "commercial relations". The Niger official assumed the commercial relations meant uranium. The official knew Iraq was restricted from such purchases and the offer was turned down. Wilson, during his talks with Niger officials and the multi-national mining companies, concluded that the Niger mining industry was so heavily monitored by the Nigerian government, by the mining companies, by the international monitoring agencies, and by the US embassy in Niger, that the chances of Iraq clandestinely optaining Niger uranium was slim to none.

The CIA agreed with this conclusion and raised doubts about the validity of the (fraudulent) Niger-Iraq documents when they were raised months after Wilson's report. Furthermore, General Fulford was also sent to Niger and reached the same conclusion as Wilson. Washington Post

From the article:

Bush said the CIA's doubts about the charge -- that Iraq sought to buy "yellowcake" uranium ore in Africa -- were "subsequent" to the Jan. 28 State of the Union speech in which Bush made the allegation. Defending the broader decision to go to war with Iraq, the president said the decision was made after he gave Saddam Hussein "a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in."

Bush's position was at odds with those of his own aides, who acknowledged over the weekend that the CIA raised doubts that Iraq sought to buy uranium from Niger more than four months before Bush's speech.

The president's assertion that the war began because Iraq did not admit inspectors appeared to contradict the events leading up to war this spring: Hussein had, in fact, admitted the inspectors and Bush had opposed extending their work because he did not believe them effective.

Furthermore, Tenet admitted that the Niger uranium should not have been mentioned in Bush's pre-war State of the Union address. LINK . Tenet claimed, at that time, that there were other justifications for believing that Iraq had an active nuclear weapons program. As we now know, the only centrifuge facilities in Iraq were the parts of a centrifuge buried in an Iraqi scientists backyard. As any nuclear scientist will tell you, it takes roughly 10,000 centrifuges to build a practical uranium enrichment facility. Parts of centrifuges buried in the ground for ten years do not constitute an active nuclear weapons program.
Wilson's article claims no such thing. He said that it would be very difficult for Iraq to get uranium out of Niger, considering the heavy monitoring and regulation. If you don't believe me, here is Wilson's article.

Even the Brit's admit that the CIA did not back the Niger-Iraq connection Link ,

Straw Saturday acknowledged that the CIA expressed reservations about the use of the claim in the UK government's September dossier on Iraqi weapons -- but insisted it was based on what British officials regarded as "reliable intelligence" which had not been shared with the United States.
U.S. President George W. Bush said Saturday that he remained confident in CIA director George Tenet after Tenet took responsibility for the line in Bush's State of the Union address alleging that Iraq was trying to buy uranium in Africa -- a line now discredited. (Full story)
In a letter to Donald Anderson, chairman of the House of Commons foreign affairs select committee dated Friday but made public by the UK Foreign Office and shown to CNN Saturday, Straw said: "I am writing to deal with two points relating to the statement in the government's September Iraq dossier that 'Iraq has sought the supply of significant quantities of uranium from Africa.'
"First, press reporting has claimed that this statement is contradicted by the report of a U.S. envoy, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who visited Niger in early 2002 to investigate the subject on behalf of the CIA.
"I want to make clear that neither I nor, to the best of my knowledge, any UK officials were aware of Ambassador Wilson's visit until reference first appeared in the press, shortly before your hearings last month. In response to our questions, the U.S. authorities have confirmed that Ambassador Wilson's report was not shared with the UK.
"We have now seen a detailed account of Ambassador Wilson's report. It does indeed describe the denials of Niger government officials in early 2002 that a contract had been concluded for the sale of yellowcake (uranium oxide) to Iraq.
"But, as CNN have reported, Ambassador Wilson's report also noted that in 1999 an Iraqi delegation sought the expansion of trade links with Niger -- and that former Niger government officials believed that this was in connection with the procurement of yellowcake.
"Uranium is Niger's main export. In other words, this element of Ambassador Wilson's report supports the statement in the government's dossier.
"Second, the media have reported that the CIA expressed reservations to us about this element of the September dossier. This is correct.
Evidently, by definition, anyone who accuses the Bush Administration of anything is biased, works for John Kerry, or both. Wilson also worked under Bush 41, and recieved letters of thanks from both Bush 41 and Sec State Baker for his work in Iraq during the Gulf War.
Wrong yet again. This is another falsehood being pushed by the current RNC talking points. What Wilson actually said in his article was:

In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.
Not true either. The decision was made by Plame's superiors. Plame suggested her husband, but had no authority on the decision. Furthermore, Wilson was a logical choice. He had served as a diplomat in both Iraq and Niger, and had served on the NSC on African Affairs.

highsea

I didnt say anything about the level of "risk". Just that Iraq had indeed been trying to buy uranium, and Wilson's report did nothing to change that opinion. See above red text- the Senate Intelligence Committee found otherwise.
Are you denying that Wilson was working for the Kerry campaign? That he was traveling with Kerry and making appearances, giving interviews, etc? How about this quote from Wilson? But that's a bunch of bullcrap. Wilson never saw those alleged documents- he is referring to the forgeries that didn't show up until 8 months after he returned from Niger. All we know is that his wife referred to some "crazy report" when she talked to him. Presubably this was the British intelligence about the 1998 and 1999 attempts to by uranium (which Wilson's trip confirmed). And Cheney said he never asked for Wilson (or anyone else) to be sent to Niger. In hiswords, "I don't know Joe Wilson. I've never met Joe Wilson. I don't know who sent Joe Wilson. He never submitted a report that I ever saw when he came back."

George Tenet said the same thing- he didn't send Wilson either.
Also from the Senate Intelligence Commitee Report:

Confed999

His report just said "highly doubtful", which still leaves doubt. No way to change positions on that...

__________________
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I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

Broken

Certainly, Iraq had been trying to acquire nuclear capability for decades. That was not news and Wilson's investigation was not tasked with verifying Iraqi desire for nuclear weapons. Iraq had over 500 tons of uranium dating from the 1980s, some from Niger. Iraq's nuclear capabilities were far greater before the Isreali Osiris strike in the 70's, before Desert Storm, and the post-war sanctions. There was no evidence since Desert Storm that Iraqi nuclear ambitions had not been contained.

According to Wilson, backed by the findings of General Fulford, Iraqi feelers towards Niger had been rebuffed. The Niger mines were so heavily monitored that any uranium flow to Iraq was highly unlikely, a fact that has been disputed by no one. In short, Iraqi attempts to acquire Nigerian uranium posed no plausible threat. Yet this threat appeared in Bush's SOTU address, along with the bogus aluminum tubes.

In the weeks after Wilson's article, it came to light that the CIA had warned that the Niger-Iraq uranium connection was a no-go. Tenet had sucessfully removed a reference to Niger from a Bush speech four months prior to the SOTU speech. Tenet said the Niger allegations came from a single dubious source. In other words, the forged documents were the only source backing the Niger allegation. This is entirely consistent with Wilson's finding of no evidence of Niger uranium getting to Iraq.
Here is the Wash Post article text you refer to:

The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address.

This article is contradicted by Tenet himself in his taking the blame for Bush's "sixteen words". The same Niger allegation had been deleted from a Bush speech four months earlier- at Tenet's request. From the Wash Post :

CIA Director George J. Tenet successfully intervened with White House officials to have a reference to Iraq seeking uranium from Niger removed from a presidential speech last October, three months before a less specific reference to the same intelligence appeared in the State of the Union address, according to senior administration officials.
Tenet argued personally to White House officials, including deputy national security adviser Stephen Hadley, that the allegation should not be used because it came from only a single source, according to one senior official. Another senior official with knowledge of the intelligence said the CIA had doubts about the accuracy of the documents underlying the allegation, which months later turned out to be forged.

Believe which Wash Post article you want to, but I will take Pincus and Tenet's own statements over Susan Schmidt, not known to be the most accurate of reporters. Her article is also at odds with this Wash Post article by Dana Priest and Dana Milbank:

Bush's position was at odds with those of his own aides, who acknowledged over the weekend that the CIA raised doubts that Iraq sought to buy uranium from Niger more than four months before Bush's speech.

There was no Kerry campaign when Wilson published his article. Considering that he believed Iraqi WMD capabilities had been cooked, and what was done to his wife in retaliation, perhaps his animosity is understandable. Wilson was a career diplomat who had worked effectively with the Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, and Clinton administrations, and received letters of commendation from both Bush 41 and Sec State Baker. Wilson has not spoken out against any adminstration except Bush 43's.
Wilson never claimed to have seen the report: "While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's." You are simply buying the RNC talking points.
Wilson never claimed that either: "In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report." You are simply repeating another RNC talking point.
Then he agrees with Wilson, who never claimed Tenet sent him to Niger.
Wilson claimed his wife did not send him to Niger, which is true since she did not have that authority. However, she did recommend him. If Wilson was not qualified to make the trip and it was Plame's decision to send him, charges of nepotism might make sense. However, neither are true. Wilson was highly qualifed, knowing Niger officials personally from his service in Africa. Furthermore, he had also served in Iraq, at the other end of the supposed connection. Finally, the decision to send Wilson was on the authority of others, not Plame.

highsea

Bush said that British intelligence showed that Iraq had tried to buy uranium. It was true when he said it, and it's true now. You want to measure the "threat level", yet you ignore that this was in direct violation of the UN sanctions and the 1991 cease fire agreement. And this intelligence had nothing to do with Wilson or his trip- it was white paper that was put out in Sepember 02, and was based on the forged Italian sales agreements with Niger.
I have downloaded the Senate report, but I don't have time to sift through it today. I agree that Tenet took the fall for the "16 words", I never said he didn't. But I will see what the Senate Intelligence Report actually says. I don't trust the WaPost either way. The article you don't trust was supposedly quoting the report, so I will see if it's really there or not.
Wilson wrote the article in July 2003. He began working for Kerry in May 03, two months before he wrote his article. By the fall, he had formally endorsed the Kerry campaign, and by the following Febuary he was signed on and traveling with Kerry. Lol, Kerry just loved him, until the Senate report came out, then he dropped him like a hot potato!

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...0835-4661r.htm
Yep, that's what he said alright. He said it in July 03. Now all you have to do is explain how the CIA sent him in February 02, to investigate documents (the forged MOA) they didn't see until September or October. By the time he wrote the article, we knew the documents were forgeries, but in Feb, they didn't even exist yet. That's why the Senate Committee (and just about everyone else) said he lied about the reason he was sent when he wrote the article 18 months later, and why he gave some lame excuse. IOW, he was justifying his trip with a reason that didn't exist when he was sent. The Senate Committee caught that, why can't you?
"...and they wanted me to go check it out". I'm paraphrasing, but the implication was clearly that he was sent at the request of Cheney, and that's what everyone was reporting at the time. Yet Cheney said he ever even saw the report and had never heard of Joe Wilson. Remember, this was 18 months after the trip. If Cheney was so concerned about it, why didn't he get a report on Wilson's trip, or even know about it? Hell, Wilson didnt even write a report. Doesn't sound like Cheney was that worried, does it? In fact, there was no real concern until the British White paper came out in September.
He also claimed she didn't recommend him, had nothing to do with it, etc. The Senate Committee found otherwise.

But you go ahead and keep believing in Joe Wilson, you would disappoint me if you did anything else...

Now I'm done with this silly discussion until there is something new on the story. Cheers.

Trooth

Aside from imprisonment for whoever outed the CIA agent (Rove or another) ... what would be the actual outcome?

Personally it doesn't look as though Rove mentioned the name, but someone did. Even if the anonymous source never existed .... what are the consequences for Novak?

BTW, whether it be opposition or the current holders of office, everyone loves an anonymous source. Just like most leaks are deliberate to get the bad news out early in un-corroborated fashion - it lets the politicos spend jaw time talking about the leak, rather than the detail. Then when the leak is found to be true it just isn't news any more.

I guess in some government offices they have deliberately placed the photocopier next to the shredder

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