US Encircling China?

Ray · 03-17-2005, 19:01 PM

Old Today, 04:06 AM #7
Ray
Senior Member

Colonel,

I am interested in this Missile Defence thing since it has been suggested I believe that India too joins in.

Any worthwhile links from the military point of view?

Though rather remotely connected, I see an effective plan to encircle China and then get it into an arms race in which it burns itself like USSR.

________________________________

Old Today, 12:53 PM #8
Officer of Engineers
Doctrine Studies

Posts: 3,455

Nothing secret, just lack of time on my part.

The Americans already got everything they needed from Canada with the integration of NORAD into Missile Command. The situation that was being presented was that the US wanted Canada in Missile Command as well which is somewhat strange since that position was never offerred (nor should it be offerred) to Canada. From the talk around here was that the US was offerring a dual trigger for any missile heading towards Canada - ie, both the President and the Prime Minister would have to say yes for Missile Command to destroy any missile heading for Canada but the Canadian Prime Minister would have no say over targets heading towards the US which is again what it should be.

From a military standpoint, this was stupid. Of course, any PM is going to say yes to destroy a missile heading towards Canada. The question is would the POTUS say yes (husbanding of missiles in case of a massive strike)?

What the US was offerring in exchange was the re-openning of the cattle trade, settle the softwood lumber issue, and easing of the border trade situation. Now, the US don't have to do any of these things for exactly what they wanted.

Canada, however, is doing some big time ass kissing. NORAD will be expanded to include Maritime and Land Force, though for the latter, I have no idea why nor what good would it do. Our armies are geared to deploy overseas, not in North America, though an integration of reserve assets (DART, CBW) would be nice.

We will deploy a combat brigade to Afghanistan under CENTCOM and not the ISAF though why a combat brigade instead of peacekeeping brigade is somewhat beyond me.
__________________

Old Today, 12:56 PM #9
Officer of Engineers
Doctrine Studies

Join Date: 08-06-03
Posts: 3,455

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Colonel,

I am interested in this Missile Defence thing since it has been suggested I believe that India too joins in.

Sir, I'm not sure there is such a system that can effectively defend against SRBM nukes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Any worthwhile links from the military point of view?

I will add it to the package I'm making for you, Sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Though rather remotely connected, I see an effective plan to encircle China and then get it into an arms race in which it burns itself like USSR.

Rather expensive way of doing things. The other point people failed to remember was that we, the West, nearly went broke too.
__________________

Old Today, 02:04 PM #10
dalem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Colonel,

I am interested in this Missile Defence thing since it has been suggested I believe that India too joins in.

Any worthwhile links from the military point of view?

Though rather remotely connected, I see an effective plan to encircle China and then get it into an arms race in which it burns itself like USSR.

I think China is too smart to get involved in that kind of contest.

-______________________________________
Unread Today, 05:32 PM #11
Ray
Senior Member

Join Date: 08-20-03
Location: India
Posts: 5,987
Send a message via Yahoo to Ray

Colonel and Dalem,

When I start that article on the Encirclement Theory and China's Counter to it, I think I will post it part by part so that you guys rip it apart and in the end I shall have a fabulous article at hand.

It will require a whole lot of research and no harm if you all start you help as of now.

As they say Will be highly obligated, when obliged would have done!

All contributions to

rayc17m@yahoo.co.uk

Thank You.
______________________________________
Unread Today, 05:40 PM #12
dalem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
Colonel and Dalem,

When I start that article on the Encirclement Theory and China's Counter to it, I think I will post it part by part so that you guys rip it apart and in the end I shall have a fabulous article at hand.

It will require a whole lot of research and no harm if you all start you help as of now.

As they say Will be highly obligated, when obliged would have done!

All contributions to

rayc17m@yahoo.co.uk

Thank You.

I'll take a shot at it sure. But remember that I am just a mouthy amateur and OoE is a pro.
________________________________________

Unread Today, 05:45 PM #13
Officer of Engineers

Sir,

From the Chinese PoV, this is certainly reminding them of the Soviet encirclement and they are attempting to break out with the listenning posts in the Indian Ocean. However, Sir, the Soviet encirclement was certainly much tighter and much more reliable (even including India) than what's going on today. The Soviets could count on India to tie down Tibet and Vietnam to start a southern front though of little good up north.

From that context, Sir, what the Americans are doing today (that is IF (I don't see it) they're trying to encircle China - and they don't need to) is a pale comparison to what the Soviets did.
__________________

Unread Today, 05:59 PM #14
Ray
Senior Member

Colonel,

I am starting a separate thread in the Political Forum to separate this from here.

It is an interesting issue since it is worth understanding as to how the US will take up the challenge by China.

All said and done, China is an Asian country and so it should not have taken up so much of time with the US and yet it does.

antelope · 03-17-2005, 19:23 PM

When you read Chinese articles you see that the Chinese fear a U.S. encirclement and American hegemony.

When you read things that Rumsfeld is famous for quoting you see a defense policy that basically does encircle China and presumes them a threat.

Personally I think both countries through paranoia are creating a self-fullfilling prophecy. China builds up as it fears encirclement and American hegemony while America seeks to encircle China as it fears Chinese power growth.

Anon · 03-17-2005, 19:48 PM

China is building up because they want to take that which is not theirs by force.

antelope · 03-17-2005, 20:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

China is building up because they want to take that which is not theirs by force.

Let's see:

As of this morning we have two governments claiming to be the legitimate government of all of China, one with a population over a billion with its capital in Beijing and is recognized by the UN and the U.S. The other one with a population of 23 million with its capital in Taipei is not recognized by the UN or U.S.

It looks to me that some interested third parties are intervening in an unresolved Civil War. It looks to me that the internationally recognized government of China is building up its military to control a portion of its American recognized territory.

Personally I hope democracy sweeps the PRC and the people get to live in the freedom the people in the ROC now have. I am not however anymore willing to shed American blood to take down China today than Americans were at the time Chiang Kai-Shek fled the mainland in the first place.

Anon · 03-17-2005, 20:18 PM

Well since you won't be doing the fighting, i wouldn't worry too much about the American blood that will be spilled.

The guys that will be dying(on the US side) are all volunteers.

antelope · 03-17-2005, 20:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Well since you won't be doing the fighting, i wouldn't worry too much about the American blood that will be spilled.

The guys that will be dying(on the US side) are all volunteers.

I have fought and killed for our country.

Last I heard the military fights whoever the civilian government through free elections tells it to fight whether the military is volunteers or conscripted. Last I heard non-obligation officers can't resign today and a stop loss on many enlisted MOSes is in force so I guess we have a hybrid system at the moment. I personally know people now in the military who are no longer volunteers.

A war with China has the potential to spill American blood on the homeland in far greater numbers than those who volunteered to join the military and will be ordered into the war zone regardless of whether they believe in the wisdom of the war.

I don't think the people who died on the first day of the War in Terror were all volunteers. Also when wars are unpopular soon the army must be filled with conscripts.

highsea · 03-17-2005, 20:43 PM

This is a little old, but it's relevant to the discussion. Sorry if it's been posted here before...

Quote:

India in US military bloc by 2008

24 November 2004: India will be part of an US-led Asia-Pacific peacekeeping force and security bloc to be established by 2008.

Conceived by US defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld three years ago but approved after the recent elections by the Congressional Research Service, it fits into his aim to modernise American forces by cutting costs and increasing effectiveness.

The idea of the peacekeeping force and encompassing bloc was conveyed to most Asian countries including India during the opening ceremony of the UN General-Assembly session in New York in September.

Diplomatic sources said prime minister Manmohan Singh was quite responsive, and the Indian armed forces believe it will bring new technology and tactics to their modernisation programme.

Nineteen countries will be initial members, and the leading ones are India, Japan, Australia, Singapore, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kyrgistan, South Korea, the Philippines, and New Zealand, followed by smaller states, which are yet to be accommodated, but have given their consent.

US armed forces will undergo a technology revolution by year 2020, and Europe sees the bloc as a “smart move” by America to preserve its hyperpower status, cutting down its own military strength, and having sway over forces from other allies.

China was shown the plan on a visit by the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, but it remained unresponsive, and diplomats said India has expressed no reservation about being deployed in a possible peacekeeping role alongwith Pakistan, because the US is said to have taken guarantees for its “good behaviour”.

http://www.indiareacts.com/nati2.asp...51&ctg=Defence

Anon · 03-17-2005, 20:47 PM

"I have fought and killed for our country."

Oh? When was that?

"Last I heard the military fights whoever the civilian government through free elections tells it to fight whether the military is volunteers or conscripted. Last I heard non-obligation officers can't resign today and a stop loss on many enlisted MOSes is in force so I guess we have a hybrid system at the moment. I personally know people now in the military who are no longer volunteers."

They should've read their contract better....they are all still volunteers. You should know that too considering you claim to be a US veteran.

Odd that you don't.

"A war with China has the potential to spill American blood on the homeland in far greater numbers than those who volunteered to join the military and will be ordered into the war zone regardless of whether they believe in the wisdom of the war."

Ummm, how do you figure? Or do you espouse the view that the PRC will nuke 1 or 2 US cities in exchange for their entire country ceasing to exist?

"I don't think the people who died on the first day of the War in Terror were all volunteers. Also when wars are unpopular soon the army must be filled with conscripts."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the War in Iraq is not exactly popular...so where are the conscripts???

You sure seem to know very little for a combat veteran.

troung · 03-17-2005, 20:47 PM

"A war with China has the potential to spill American blood on the homeland in far greater numbers than those who volunteered to join the military and will be ordered into the war zone regardless of whether they believe in the wisdom of the war. I don't think the people who died on the first day of the War in Terror were all volunteers. Also when wars are unpopular soon the army must be filled with conscripts"

You moron we will not be sacking Beijing but taking out a damn invasion fleet...

Anon · 03-17-2005, 20:48 PM

"You moron we will not be sacking Beijing but taking out a damn invasion fleet.."

LOL, i was trying to be nice...

Anon · 03-17-2005, 21:08 PM

On a related note:

http://forum.a-10.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8567

troung · 03-17-2005, 21:09 PM

Yeah me and you have had these "talks" with people like this for at least 3 years now...

Hell for some reason this guy is thinking going through the boonies circa 1968 or Stalingrad rather then the fact it is a naval and air war in 2005 on. I guess someone needs to crub stomp this guy to get it into his head we will not need to land troops to burn Nanking. So he should explain why on Earth we would need draftees to fill up the army for and air and sea war? Yeah the ROCA would draft their own people and thats about it...

We would simply beat on the Chinese Air Force and Navy to be blunt. Screw their massive army and what ever it is totally irellavant. Their navy is a coastal force totally unable to play with us and their "air force" (hot air) is a force far more fit for an air show to 15 kids who jack off thinking Red China is some damn super power that can beat us and Taiwan at once. The CCP spits out hot air and kids think they could actually take Taiwan and the USA at once. People don't see that it is hot air because they lakc the ability to do ****. What planet do these jack asses come from?

Plus I have been drinking all day...

Anon · 03-17-2005, 21:17 PM

"Plus I have been drinking all day..."

LOL.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-17-2005, 21:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antelope

When you read Chinese articles you see that the Chinese fear a U.S. encirclement and American hegemony.

I happen to read Chinese articles in Chinese and while they're concern, fear is not a word I use. The Chinese are boxed in, not by any military coalition but by their isolation, lack of friends, and their own obsolence military.

At the same time, the Chinese believe themselves (self-deludingly) to be the master of the political strategem which they believe that they can outfox anybody in the region.

Your quote of their military capability and willingness is an example of that belief. However, none of it stands up to close scrutiny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by antelope

When you read things that Rumsfeld is famous for quoting you see a defense policy that basically does encircle China and presumes them a threat.

It's already done by the very nature of China's location and lack of good neighbours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by antelope

Personally I think both countries through paranoia are creating a self-fullfilling prophecy. China builds up as it fears encirclement and American hegemony while America seeks to encircle China as it fears Chinese power growth.

Those of us who lived with the Cold War cannot understand this Chinese worm pretending to be the dragon everyone is now boasting.

antelope · 03-17-2005, 21:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"Oh? When was that?"

The Gulf War. 1PLT/69th CML Co 1st AD

I also served in peacetime in the 2ACR and the 82 ABN Div. Most of my reserve time was in the 91st DIV (ex)

"They should've read their contract better....they are all still volunteers. You should know that too considering you claim to be a US veteran."

A semantic game. You can debate that with a stop loss soldier or an officer who has served past his eight year obligation and can't resign. I understand the legality of your argument.

"Correct me if i'm wrong, but the War in Iraq is not exactly popular...so where are the conscripts???"

I wasn't referring to the Iraq War. I was referring to unpopular wars in general.

"You sure seem to know very little for a combat veteran."

You know little to nothing about me. You however show what kind of person you are by making personal attacks instead of having a friendly discussion of peoples opinions.

03-17-2005, 19:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,149 Country:	US Encircling China? Old Today, 04:06 AM #7 Ray Senior Member Colonel, I am interested in this Missile Defence thing since it has been suggested I believe that India too joins in. Any worthwhile links from the military point of view? Though rather remotely connected, I see an effective plan to encircle China and then get it into an arms race in which it burns itself like USSR. ________________________________ Old Today, 12:53 PM #8 Officer of Engineers Doctrine Studies Posts: 3,455 Nothing secret, just lack of time on my part. The Americans already got everything they needed from Canada with the integration of NORAD into Missile Command. The situation that was being presented was that the US wanted Canada in Missile Command as well which is somewhat strange since that position was never offerred (nor should it be offerred) to Canada. From the talk around here was that the US was offerring a dual trigger for any missile heading towards Canada - ie, both the President and the Prime Minister would have to say yes for Missile Command to destroy any missile heading for Canada but the Canadian Prime Minister would have no say over targets heading towards the US which is again what it should be. From a military standpoint, this was stupid. Of course, any PM is going to say yes to destroy a missile heading towards Canada. The question is would the POTUS say yes (husbanding of missiles in case of a massive strike)? What the US was offerring in exchange was the re-openning of the cattle trade, settle the softwood lumber issue, and easing of the border trade situation. Now, the US don't have to do any of these things for exactly what they wanted. Canada, however, is doing some big time ass kissing. NORAD will be expanded to include Maritime and Land Force, though for the latter, I have no idea why nor what good would it do. Our armies are geared to deploy overseas, not in North America, though an integration of reserve assets (DART, CBW) would be nice. We will deploy a combat brigade to Afghanistan under CENTCOM and not the ISAF though why a combat brigade instead of peacekeeping brigade is somewhat beyond me. __________________ Old Today, 12:56 PM #9 Officer of Engineers Doctrine Studies Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 3,455 Quote: Originally Posted by Ray Colonel, I am interested in this Missile Defence thing since it has been suggested I believe that India too joins in. Sir, I'm not sure there is such a system that can effectively defend against SRBM nukes. Quote: Originally Posted by Ray Any worthwhile links from the military point of view? I will add it to the package I'm making for you, Sir. Quote: Originally Posted by Ray Though rather remotely connected, I see an effective plan to encircle China and then get it into an arms race in which it burns itself like USSR. Rather expensive way of doing things. The other point people failed to remember was that we, the West, nearly went broke too. __________________ Old Today, 02:04 PM #10 dalem Quote: Originally Posted by Ray Colonel, I am interested in this Missile Defence thing since it has been suggested I believe that India too joins in. Any worthwhile links from the military point of view? Though rather remotely connected, I see an effective plan to encircle China and then get it into an arms race in which it burns itself like USSR. I think China is too smart to get involved in that kind of contest. -______________________________________ Unread Today, 05:32 PM #11 Ray Senior Member Join Date: 08-20-03 Location: India Posts: 5,987 Send a message via Yahoo to Ray Colonel and Dalem, When I start that article on the Encirclement Theory and China's Counter to it, I think I will post it part by part so that you guys rip it apart and in the end I shall have a fabulous article at hand. It will require a whole lot of research and no harm if you all start you help as of now. As they say Will be highly obligated, when obliged would have done! All contributions to rayc17m@yahoo.co.uk Thank You. ______________________________________ Unread Today, 05:40 PM #12 dalem Quote: Originally Posted by Ray Colonel and Dalem, When I start that article on the Encirclement Theory and China's Counter to it, I think I will post it part by part so that you guys rip it apart and in the end I shall have a fabulous article at hand. It will require a whole lot of research and no harm if you all start you help as of now. As they say Will be highly obligated, when obliged would have done! All contributions to rayc17m@yahoo.co.uk Thank You. I'll take a shot at it sure. But remember that I am just a mouthy amateur and OoE is a pro. ________________________________________ Unread Today, 05:45 PM #13 Officer of Engineers Sir, From the Chinese PoV, this is certainly reminding them of the Soviet encirclement and they are attempting to break out with the listenning posts in the Indian Ocean. However, Sir, the Soviet encirclement was certainly much tighter and much more reliable (even including India) than what's going on today. The Soviets could count on India to tie down Tibet and Vietnam to start a southern front though of little good up north. From that context, Sir, what the Americans are doing today (that is IF (I don't see it) they're trying to encircle China - and they don't need to) is a pale comparison to what the Soviets did. __________________ Unread Today, 05:59 PM #14 Ray Senior Member Colonel, I am starting a separate thread in the Political Forum to separate this from here. It is an interesting issue since it is worth understanding as to how the US will take up the challenge by China. All said and done, China is an Asian country and so it should not have taken up so much of time with the US and yet it does. Last edited by Ray : 03-17-2005 at 19:06 PM.

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03-17-2005, 19:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
antelope Regular Join Date: 12-27-04 Posts: 99	When you read Chinese articles you see that the Chinese fear a U.S. encirclement and American hegemony. When you read things that Rumsfeld is famous for quoting you see a defense policy that basically does encircle China and presumes them a threat. Personally I think both countries through paranoia are creating a self-fullfilling prophecy. China builds up as it fears encirclement and American hegemony while America seeks to encircle China as it fears Chinese power growth.

03-17-2005, 19:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	China is building up because they want to take that which is not theirs by force.

03-17-2005, 20:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	Well since you won't be doing the fighting, i wouldn't worry too much about the American blood that will be spilled. The guys that will be dying(on the US side) are all volunteers.

03-17-2005, 20:47 PM	#8 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	"I have fought and killed for our country." Oh? When was that? "Last I heard the military fights whoever the civilian government through free elections tells it to fight whether the military is volunteers or conscripted. Last I heard non-obligation officers can't resign today and a stop loss on many enlisted MOSes is in force so I guess we have a hybrid system at the moment. I personally know people now in the military who are no longer volunteers." They should've read their contract better....they are all still volunteers. You should know that too considering you claim to be a US veteran. Odd that you don't. "A war with China has the potential to spill American blood on the homeland in far greater numbers than those who volunteered to join the military and will be ordered into the war zone regardless of whether they believe in the wisdom of the war." Ummm, how do you figure? Or do you espouse the view that the PRC will nuke 1 or 2 US cities in exchange for their entire country ceasing to exist? "I don't think the people who died on the first day of the War in Terror were all volunteers. Also when wars are unpopular soon the army must be filled with conscripts." Correct me if i'm wrong, but the War in Iraq is not exactly popular...so where are the conscripts??? You sure seem to know very little for a combat veteran.

03-17-2005, 20:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
troung A Self Important *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 4,236 Country:	"A war with China has the potential to spill American blood on the homeland in far greater numbers than those who volunteered to join the military and will be ordered into the war zone regardless of whether they believe in the wisdom of the war. I don't think the people who died on the first day of the War in Terror were all volunteers. Also when wars are unpopular soon the army must be filled with conscripts" You moron we will not be sacking Beijing but taking out a damn invasion fleet...

03-17-2005, 20:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	"You moron we will not be sacking Beijing but taking out a damn invasion fleet.." LOL, i was trying to be nice...

03-17-2005, 21:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	On a related note: http://forum.a-10.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8567

03-17-2005, 21:09 PM	#12 (permalink)
troung A Self Important *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 4,236 Country:	Yeah me and you have had these "talks" with people like this for at least 3 years now... Hell for some reason this guy is thinking going through the boonies circa 1968 or Stalingrad rather then the fact it is a naval and air war in 2005 on. I guess someone needs to crub stomp this guy to get it into his head we will not need to land troops to burn Nanking. So he should explain why on Earth we would need draftees to fill up the army for and air and sea war? Yeah the ROCA would draft their own people and thats about it... We would simply beat on the Chinese Air Force and Navy to be blunt. Screw their massive army and what ever it is totally irellavant. Their navy is a coastal force totally unable to play with us and their "air force" (hot air) is a force far more fit for an air show to 15 kids who jack off thinking Red China is some damn super power that can beat us and Taiwan at once. The CCP spits out hot air and kids think they could actually take Taiwan and the USA at once. People don't see that it is hot air because they lakc the ability to do ****. What planet do these jack asses come from? Plus I have been drinking all day...

03-17-2005, 21:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	"Plus I have been drinking all day..." LOL.

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