Imperialism? - Page 4

Rahul · 01-27-2005, 23:15 PM

Tarek, when you told me to "stop this petty scorekeeping" or someting like that for my comment about India giving the West its numerical system a few pages ago (wow, this thread has certainly evolved quickly!), I wasn't trying to keep a score. Sorry if it appeared that way. I was trying to make a larger point that history is full of instances where one civilization or nation or culture absorbed lessons from those that were more advanced than it at the time either through trade and interaction or through being ruled by that country. Much of Britain was once Roman and the Romans were more technologically advanced than the Britons. Now, Rome doesn't exist and Britain of that era doesn't exist either. Imperialism is really only such a controversial issue because it happened recently. I'm of the opinion it was nothing more than a global version of what has been happening since the beginning of civilization. One civilization or people conquered another and imparted technology which was improved by the conquered people and their descendents so that one day roles were reversed.

As for the effect on Indian culture, I'd say India is somewhat like China is rather resilient in that respect as a civilization. It integrates and accepts (eventually) ideas brought by new rulers and invaders sooner or later but isn't overcome by them. China though seems to absorb outsiders rather than incorporate them IMO (the Yuan dyansty didn't leave behind a large Mongol imprint like the Mughals did a strong Muslim and Turkic presence on Subcontinent). Also Tarek, I agree that the modern idea of "India" as opposed to the much earlier concept of "Bharat" was conceived under British rule (ironic, isn't it?). However, many other nationalisms arose from the French Revolution on across the world so I don't see anything too odd about that. THe common man (or at least enough people) finally started to feel like India was his and that British rule of it was worth doing something about, just as in the French Revolution, the common Frenchman saw France as his. No doubt though, modern Indian nationalism w Anyhow, my pt. is, imperialism is just the latest manifestation of what's been happening for millenia.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not going to get into the debate on culture as I just don't feel I know enough to speak about it. I just wanted to reply to what you said Tarek.

Ray · 01-28-2005, 01:00 AM

Tarek,

WOG is not a offensive word?

Fine, then what the big deal of a Paakistani being called by the short word
'PA ki'?

There was big deal made of it on this very forum.

Do contact the Admins and inform them it is OK for Pakistanis to be called
'PA ki'.

Also don't niptick on words.

Do comment on the THREE POSTS I have posted.

Do look at the posts in its totality and request do not go tangential for the want of an cognitive answer.

As far as Pakistani edication and hisroty is concerned, I sure will comment, thouh I was avoiding it since there is no need to turn this thread into a 'war', but if you wish I have to oblige.

Ray · 01-28-2005, 01:23 AM

Tarek,

Pakistan's concept of history is limited to the Moslem aspect of history and that too not total as will be noticed in the article below.

Pakistan's history does not acknowldge the past history of the Indian subcontinent and it culture. I will tryo post post on that though I think it is already there in one of teh thread on education on this forum). The Moslems do not acknowledge it. Their history starts with teh Moghul, then it becomes sketchy on the British period except of the Moslem aspects and then picks up after Independence.

Obviously, when one does not acknowledge the past, they have to rely on British interpretation alone.

In fact, all contribution to science, education etc of acclaim that Moslems have done are from Persia and Arabia. Can't blame the Pakistanis. They were Hindus before they converted and they wish to forget their Hindu past.

The Shape of Pakistan

Pakistan’s Endangered History
[Dawn, 4 June 1995]

(Ekbal Ahmed is the speaker)

It is a great privilege for me to be speaking on this very unique occasion. It is rare among us Pakistanis to honour the Quaid-i-Azam beyond rhetoric, and in a substantive way. Professor Zaidi deserves our gratitude for compiling two volumes of the Jinnah Papers. These are but the tip of Mr. Jinnah’s fragmented archieves, for these 3,000-plus pages cover only four months and ten days of his eventful life, from Feb 20, 1947, to June 30. A total of 50 volumes are projected in this series to be published by the Quaid-i-Azam Papers Project.

I know Professor Zaidi to be a driven man who has devoted more than three decades of his life to gathering, restoring, compiling, and editing this national treasure. I am sure that you will join me in wishing him the good health he needs to complete this truly noble mission. I know that his spirit and dedication will not wilt as long as his body holds out. So may you live long, and remain immersed for years to come in the life and times of Pakistan’s founding father.

Professor Sahib, as a historian and archivist you have reached the fulfillment of a life-long dream. You have rescued from dire neglect and the dungeons of dictatorship the private papers of Mr. Jinnah. You have been persistent in getting them preserved, catalogued, and published. And today you have the unique pleasure of seeing two of your former students – one at the helm of the state and the other a humble teacher – speak at the launching of the volumes you have compiled. Few historians and fewer teachers can hope to achieve more in lifetime. Our heartiest thanks and congratulations to you.

But before I make a final bow to a man’s remarkable accomplishment, I should underline that it is shared with a woman. During the months that became years Parveen Zaidi patiently bore the burnt of professor Zaidi’s highly articulated frustrations with Pakistan’s versatile foot draggers. And she actually helped with the difficult task of restoring and preserving the decayed archives. In the process, she became Pakistan’s first and so far only internationally recognised restorer of manuscripts. Her services have since been sought by international organisations such as UNESCO and governments as far apart as Turkey, Iran, and Malaysia. During the decades of toil with these papers she nursed the good professor through - two heart operations, and shared with him the very tragic loss of the younger of their two sons. I hope you all join me in offering them both our heartfelt thanks and deepest sympathies.

I should say a word about the quest for excellence and our people’s response to it. Sadly, there is paucity of excellence in this country. It was not always so in the land of Mohammed Iqbal, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Saadat Hasan Manto, Faiz Ahmed Faiz, and Professor Abdus Salam whom we have all but formally banished from our midst. Hence ordinary citizens are wistfully engaged when they notice someone striving for excellence with a sense of purpose other than getting rich. And they support the endeavour with an enthusiasm that defies expectation. Men like Abdul Sattar Edhi and Dr. Akhtar Hameed Khan will testify to this gratifying phenomenon of civil society in Pakistan.

I recall how anxious professor Zaidi had been about finding the people who could help him in organising, collating, and editing the enormous piles of the Quaid-i-Azam’s papers. “This is back-breaking work Eqbal, and it requires perseverance and skill”, I recall Professor Zaidi worrying aloud soon after he had returned to Pakistan three years ago, “I can teach the skill but where shall I find the people with discipline of work and the will to persist? “Well, they appeared, men and women, young and old, determined to help, eager to learn. Learn they did, and help they gave with dogged determination. In the end the Jinnah Papers is as much their achievement as it is Professor and Mrs. Zaidi’s. They are here in this hall deserving of our warmest hand of appreciation.

Therein lies an insight which I should underline for the benefit of this and the future leadership of Pakistan: The heart of this country, its people, is clean like spring water, solid as rock, and poetic in its yearning for goodness, justice and enlightenment. Mohammed Ali Jinnah’s greatness lay in sensing this simple truth. He led them with unassailable integrity along a path that promised economic justice, liberation from a constricting past, and an enlightened future. They followed with enthusiasm and dedication, without fear or misgiving, and conferred upon this unlikely barrister the historic honour of becoming the founder of an important state. It is a tragic fact that since his passing this great people, like the Quaid’s material legacies, has suffered from negligence and breach of faith.

One price, and by no means the greatest, of this neglect is that neither Mr. Jinnah, nor the movement he led has been accorded serious scholarly attention. Of the four biographies so far published on him, only one, by Stanley Wolpert has scholarly merit and views its subject in the larger context of colonial and nationalist politics. And apart from Dr. Saleem Ahmed’s book which covers the years 1906-1921, no serious work has been done on the Muslim League and the Pakistan movement.

Archives are the memory bank of a nation; and works of history articulate that memory in organised, meaningful ways. It is truly tragic that our archives suffer from neglect and fragmentation, and historians are nearly extinct in Pakistan. To make matters worse, we are bringing up ill-informed generations who are being taught in schools poisonous and ideologically loaded distortions as history. An early exposure to this phenomenon was provided in a pioneering essay entitled “Rewriting the History of Pakistan” by Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy and Abdul Hameed Nayyar which appears in ‘Islam, Politics and the State’, edited by Air Marshal Asghar Khan. A greater service was rendered later by Professor K.K. Aziz’s ‘ The Murder of History in Pakistan.’

The process of polluting the sources of knowledge in this country had begun earlier; it climaxed in the dictatorship of Ziaul Haq who obviously perceived educational institutions as an important instrument of consolidating his tyranny in the name of Islam and an invention labeled the “Ideology of Pakistan”. The General declared as compulsory the teaching of Pakistan Studies in degree colleges, including engineering and medical institutions. The rewriting of history proceeded then on a grand scale. The University Grants Commission issued a directive informing prospective textbook writers that the aim of the new course is to “induce pride for the nation’s past, enthusiasm for the present (sic), and unshakable faith in the stability and longevity of Pakistan”. Lest this leaves some ambiguity, therefore room for accommodating some canons of historiography, authors were given the following guidelines:

“To demonstrate that the basis of Pakistan is not to be found in racial, linguistic or geographical factors, but, rather, in the shared experience of a common religion. To get students to know and appreciate the Ideology of Pakistan, and to popularise it with slogans. To guide students towards the ultimate goal of Pakistan – the creation of a complete Islamised state.”

I do not know of any country’s educational system that so explicitly subordinates knowledge to politics. Teaching and writing of history, always in jeopardy in Pakistan, has now passed from historians to hacks. They have invented a history that historians, of whom only a handful are left in Pakistan, shall not recognise. The Quaid-i-Azam was among their first victims: he underwent a metamorphosis becoming a man of orthodox religious views who sought the creation of a theocratic state and the Ulema, who with rare exceptions had opposed Jinnah and the Pakistan movement, emerged as heroes and founding fathers of Pakistan. The Jinnah Papers are rebuke and reminder of the distortions to which our history has been subjected. They also ensure that future historians shall have easy access to the real Jinnah and the movement he led.

Professor Zaidi has ideas on how to preserve and consolidate our sorely neglected and fragmented archives. I beg for a national effort to review and revise the curricula and textbooks of history and Pakistan Studies in our schools. To no do so is to condemn future Pakistani generations to ignorance and obscurantism.

Ray · 01-28-2005, 01:35 AM

“I am a Muslim and profoundly conscious of that fact that I have inherited Islam's glorious tradition of the last thirteen hundred years. I am not prepared to lose even a small part of that legacy. The history and teachings of Islam, its art and letters, its cultural and civilization are part of my wealth and it is my duty to cherish and guard them... But, with all these feelings, I have another equally deep realization born out of my life's experience, which is strengthened and not hindered by the Islamic spirit. I am equally proud of the fact that I am an Indian, an essential part of the indivisible unity of Indian nationhood, a vital factor in its total makeup, without which this noble edifice will remain incomplete. I can never give up this sincere claim.”

- Maulana Abul Kalam Azad

The exiled Czech writer Kundera once wrote: ["A name means continuity with the past and people without a past are people without a name."

Lastly, I have no mentality of being a 'victim'. No siree.

I, however, am aware of my country's history and legacy, all of it, be the Ancient or Modern. Be it, Pagan, Vedic, Hindu, Moslem or Christian. Each part of that history has something to tell. I will not run away from the past. I use them to look to the future with resolve and come to grips with reality rather than be an escapist or try to curry favours with the Jones.

I am proud that India has a continuity in history. It has a glorious and inglorious past. Indians have a past and tehy are not people who forget their past and become a people without a past without a name!

I will face the challenge as equals and not as a psycophant just so that some crumbs can be thrown my way.

Also, religion will not cloud my tryst with history or destiny.

Ray · 01-28-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Newsline Special

Lessons in Intolerance

The textbooks that form part of the present public school curriculum are lessons in bigotry, hate and a gross misrepresentation of history.

By Massoud Ansari.

"Baba, what is kari?" a young girl asks her father. He ponders over how best he can explain this barbaric ritual that involves killing women in the name of 'honour' to his young daughter, and wonders where she has heard the term. He presumes she has read of it in newspapers, where such incidents are regularly reported. Before he can muster an appropriate explanation, his daughter asks if Marvi - a romantic heroine of Sindhi folklore - was a kari. She gleaned this information from one of her textbooks in school, she says.

Various references to karo-kari are found to crop up in textbooks in current use in local schools, particularly in lessons pertaining to local folklore. Many of the references are, however, completely erroneous. Apparently the concerned authorities believe that karo-kari is now a part of the country's culture(my comments: is this culture?) and thus deserving of mention in the curriculum. Ironically, according to some reports, the Federal Curriculum Wing (FCW) - an authority that regulates textbooks in the country - rejected the proposal to include late journalist, Najma Babar's article 'Madam Chairman, Sir,' in a Class 10 English textbook. The article is about a married woman who goes out to work, while her husband, who is unemployed, takes care of the children and the home. The fact that male unemployment has become almost endemic particularly in Pakistan's lower and lower middle classes and economic compulsions have pushed many women into the workplace - in essence resulted in a role reversal of traditional male-female positions - apparently does not register with the authorities who rejected Babar's article on the grounds that "it goes against Pakistani culture and society."

Meanwhile, a poem by Kahlil Jibran, a world-renowned philosopher and writer and a Maronite Christian, was rejected by the FCW on the grounds that he was a Jew. Similarly a lesson containing a letter by Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah's daughter, Dina Wadia, about her father in a textbook was rejected, because the concerned authorities decreed that since the Quaid had disowned her and Wadia is not a Muslim, she is not eligible to feature in local academic curricula.

Welcome to Pakistani public schools, which are laying the foundations of future generations, where children are introduced to bigotry and intolerance from the primary level, and the conditioning continues throughout school. The lessons of tolerance included in the country's curriculum in the first two decades of the country's existence are being systematically replaced with lessons emphasising militancy, jihad and an ideology of hate. A case in point: recently a book was returned to its authors by the Federal Curriculum Wing for not carrying enough material on jihad.

The amount of influence school textbooks wield on students' impressionable minds is indicated by a survey of schoolchildren published recently. Almost half of those surveyed do not support equal rights for minorities. A third of them support jihadi groups. Two-thirds of them want the Shariah to be implemented in letter and spirit. Nearly a third said Kashmir should be liberated by force, and nearly 80 per cent of them support Pakistan's nuclear status.

Once a platform from which healthy, informed minds emerged, Pakistan's public school system today is a cesspool of ignorance, obscurantism and corruption. A graphic example: when a high school teacher at one of Karachi's public schools asked her class students to write an essay on any subject of their choice, one of the boys came up with a detailed and rather chilling 'Autobiography of a pistol.' The student summed up his essay with the statement, "I fall into the hands of a burglar who points me at a child, and demands ransom money from his parents in exchange for my life."

The percentage of the gross domestic product allocated to Pakistan's education budget is puny. According to a UNESCO estimate, it is smaller than that of most Muslim countries, smaller even than that of most sub-Saharan nations. Small wonder then that the country is lagging behind her South Asian neighbours in assorted respects: Pakistan has the distinction of having the lowest literacy rate among this group, the lowest female participation in education, the highest female primary school dropout rate, and the lowest enrolment in the area of tertiary education. It is also the only country in the region where the expenditure on education as a proportion of the Gross National Product (GNP) has gone down since 1990 from 2.6 per cent of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to 1.7 per cent in the last few years.

Officially Pakistan's literacy rate is 45 per cent, although most education specialists maintain that the actual figure is less than 30 per cent. A World Bank report states that more than a third of the nation's 10-year-olds have never attended class.

According to experts, it is not just the fact that Pakistan's education budget in relation to the Gross Domestic Product is insignificant; corruption, mismanagement and criminal negligence by the bureaucracy, policy-makers and feudal politicians have contributed substantially to the declining standards of the country's public education system. Combined, these factors have resulted in a low investment in education, ghost schools, ghost teachers, open-air schools devoid of even the most basic facilities, etc. Add to that the curricula of these public institutions and the output can only too easily be assessed.

A recent study, 'The Subtle Subversion: The state of curricula and textbooks in Pakistan 2003', carried out by the Sustainable Development Policy Institute (SDPI), exposing the nature of the curricula taught to schoolchildren puts to lie claims emanating from the helm of the promotion of tolerance and moderation in the country. The report illustrates the myriad complex means used to disseminate ideologies of hate through the state's educational system.

The 140-page SDPI report contains a detailed analysis of currently used textbooks and the general curriculum in government schools which demonstrates how the education system is contributing towards the creation of a culture of sectarianism, religious intolerance and violence. It notes how historical facts have been twisted and mutilated at length by certain vested interests to promote their respective agendas.

Ironically, instead of debating the issues raised in this report, some of the country's policy-makers and right-wing elements have started questioning 'the agenda' of the organisation responsible for the report, and the credibility of its authors. And when the government set up a committee to review the findings of this report and indicated it may consider making some changes in the academic curricula, the situation turned ugly.

In Karachi, school and college students held a protest march against any proposed changes. The Islami Jamiat-e-Tulaba (IJT), the youth wing of the Jamaat Islami, organised the event. The protesters carried banners and placards inscribed with demands that Quranic verses be included in the syllabi, the federal education minister be dismissed and US intervention in Pakistan's affairs be halted. The protestors also condemned the findings of the SDPI report and issued threats of dire consequencies, if the government attempted to "secularise" the curriculum.

Members of the six-party alliance, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA), also voiced their protest: They walked out of a National Assembly session on the grounds that a certain reference to jihad as well as some Quranic verses had been excluded from the new edition of a state-prescribed biology textbook. Liaqat Baloch of the MMA alleged, "Under the conditionalities of the US Agency for International Development, all verses containing any references to jihad or exposing the anti-Muslim prejudices of Jews and Christians are being omitted from the syllabi." And Jamaat-e-Islami chief, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, warned that his party would move a privilege motion against government censorship in the syllabi.

Federal Education Minister Zubeida Jalal responded to these charges by stating in the National Assembly that no chapter or verses relating to jihad or shahadat (martyrdom) had been deleted from local textbooks. She clarified that the particular verse referring to jihad which the MMA was up in arms over had been 'shifted' from the biology textbook for intermediate students (Classes XI and XII) to the matriculation level courses (Class X), not omitted. The minister was visibly on the defensive when she said that the government had rejected the SDPI report because the committee she had set up to look into the report had rejected it as representing an "extremist" view.

One of the co-authors of this report, Dr. A.H. Nayyar, however, accused the education minister of not sharing the findings of the committee with members of the National Assembly. He contended that before submitting the report to the education ministry, nine members of the 15-member government review committee endorsed the report, while six expressed dissenting views on some findings. Nayyar wrote in a recently published article, "I don't know what prompted the education minister to remark on the floor of the National Assembly that the committee rejected the report."

This is not the first time that Pakistani educationists have researched the curricula set for local schools. In 1994 another educationist, Dr Rubina Saigol wrote a detailed paper, called 'The boundaries of consciousness: interface between the curriculum, gender and nationalism,' in a book called Locating the Self.

In this paper she demonstrated with several examples how our textbooks depict Hindus in a negative light enemies and how they incite permanent enmity, hatred and alienation with India. The author's contention was that local textbooks promote militarism and violence and indirectly justify heavy defence expenditure.

Likewise, some other scholars, such as Dr Mubarak Ali and Professor K.K. Aziz have also published reports on this issue. KK Aziz has pointed out in detail the major inaccuracies, distortions, exaggerations and slants found in each officially prepared and prescribed textbook and in a representative selection of private commercial publications which are in wide use as textbooks. Khurshid Hasnain, Pervez Hoodbhoy and Tariq Rahman have also examined the distortions in history and social studies textbooks.

According to some reports, in 1999, the National Committee on Education, which was constituted under the chairmanship of the federal education secretary at the prompting of some eminent educationists, prepared a report 'National Curriculum 2000: A Conceptual Framework,' calling for a paradigm shift in the curriculum in order to produce "involved, caring and responsible citizens." This report was filed somewhere in the ministry, and no action has been taken on it to date.

Experts on the subject disclose how different things were. They maintain textbooks prepared in the early years of Pakistan did not contain any kind of hatred or animosity towards Hindus despite the fact that the wounds from Partition were still raw. "The early textbooks in Pakistan written after Partition were free of the pathological hate that we see in textbooks today," says an expert. According to him the early history books contained chapters not only on old civilisations like Moenjodaro, Harappa, Taxila, etc., but also on the Hindu mythology contained in the Ramayana and Mahabharata, and extensively covered, often with admiration, the great Hindu Kingdoms of the Mauryas and Guptas. While these books admittedly indicated some bias when referring to more recent history, particularly the politics of independence, one found school textbooks featuring and praising Mohandas Gandhi. And the creation of Pakistan was attributed to the intransigence of the All India Congress and its leadership in respect of accommodating the Muslim League rather than to 'Hindu machinations.'

Some books also clearly mentioned that the most prominent Islamic religious leaders were all bitterly opposed to the creation of Pakistan. "Such was the enlightened teaching of history for the first 25 years of Pakistan even though two wars were fought against India in this period. The print and electronic media often indulged in anti-Hindu propaganda, but educational material was by and large free of hate against Hindus," reads the SDPI report.

The rot set in with the advent of General Zia-ul-Haq. Zia's 'Islamisation' of the country - widely recognised as a political tool to legitimise his rule - saw him cosying up to the Jamaat-e-Islami, a fundamentalist political party, and his government openly started transforming the education system. What resulted was a brand of education that officially fostered intolerance, bigotry and violence.

Experts in the field contend that the concept of jihad was widely incorporated into the Pakistani curriculum after the start of the Afghan war. According to Dr. Nayyar, at that point it suited Washington, and its most allied of allies, Pakistan, to encourage and glorify the mujahideen or 'holy warriors,' in the war against the Soviets - and an American institution of higher education was asked to formulate textbooks for Pakistani schools in keeping with his agenda. Says Nayyar, "The institution - the University of Nebraska at Omaha, which has a centre for Afghan studies - was tasked by the CIA in the early eighties to rewrite textbooks for Afghan refugee children. The new books included hate material even in arithmetic. For example, if a man has five bullets and two go into the heads of Russian soldiers, how many are left… that kind of stuff. This was exposed in a research thesis from the New School, New York in about 2002."

The right-wing Jamaat-e-Islami that was given the task to make changes in the Pakistani school curriculum at that time, introduced as the cardinal principle of education the philosophy of its spiritual mentor and political guide Syed Abul Aala Maududi, who believed that in an Islamic society all that is taught should be in the context of religious knowledge. Every subject thus became Islamiat. A new breed of textbook historians came into existence and lessons emphasising militancy, jihad and hate became a predominant part of learning. Since actual history - researched, narrated and compiled by serious professional historians - did not conform to their agenda, they created a new history of Pakistan which began with the arrival of Muslims in the subcontinent. "They have rewritten history in a manner which has impoverished it and taken away from students material that could enrich their perspective," Nayyar contended.

In the revised textbooks the ancient history of the region, the glories of Moenjodaro and Harappa, the Hindu kingdoms, the advent of Buddhism, the incursion of the Greeks and Bactrians, and so much more that has made our region the cradle of one of the richest civilisations in the world, have all been eliminated. A sample of what we have instead from a textbook currently in use: "As a matter of fact, Pakistan came to be established for the first time when the Arabs under Muhammad bin Qasim occupied Sindh and Multan in the early years of the eighth century, and established Muslim rule in this part of the South-Asian subcontinent. Pakistan under the Arabs comprised the Lower Indus Valley. During the 12th century the Ghaznavids lost Afghanistan, and their rule came to be confined to Pakistan. By the 13th century, Pakistan had spread to include the whole of Northern India and Bengal. Under the Khiljis, Pakistan moved further southward to include a greater part of Central India and the Deccan. During the 16th century, 'Hindustan' disappeared and was completely absorbed in Pakistan."
(Comment: Such tommy rot. Pakistan "Pakistan came to be established for the first time when the Arabs under Muhammad bin Qasim occupied Sindh and Multan". PAKISTAN CAME INTO BEING IN AUG 1947 and not with MB Qaim!! It is deculsional deceit and so immature and childish)

Gradually subjects such as Indo-Pakistan history and geography which earlier formed part of the local educational curriculum were replaced by Pakistan Studies. In the new books Pakistan was defined as an Islamic state and the history of Pakistan became synonymous with the history of Muslims in the subcontinent. The pre-Islamic history of the region meanwhile ceased to exist as subject matter. The new curriculum started with the Arab conquest of Sindh and swiftly jumped to the Muslim conquerors from Central Asia. Alongside, the seventies saw the so-called 'ideology of Pakistan' increasingly entering study courses. This involved the creation of an ideological straitjacket whereby the history of Pakistan, especially that of the Pakistan Movement was rewritten with an utter disregard for the truth. Pakistan, it was now said, was created with an aim to establish a purely Islamic state in accordance with the tenets of the Quran and Sunnah. Suddenly, the ulema who had bitterly opposed the creation of Pakistan were cited as the heroes of the Pakistan movement, Muhammed Ali Jinnah (whom the religious clergy used to refer to as 'Kafir-e-Azam' and was labelled an infidel by them because of his distinctly liberal lifestyle) was portrayed as a pious, practicing Muslim, and Hindus began to be reviled as the permanent enemy.

According to the SDPI report, the instructions laid out for the revised curriculum in fact, stressed on portraying Hindus not just as the enemies of Islam, but as altogether unsavoury. The textbooks read by our students today elaborate on the alleged 'social evils' of Hindus, including their disrespect for women, their practice of child marriage, suttee, the caste system, etc. Even our collective memories were no longer to be trusted. For example, in describing the tragedy of East Pakistan, the new textbooks squarely lay the blame on the general elections of 1970 and on the Hindus living in East Pakistan.

According to the SDPI report, some of the major problems in the current curriculum and textbooks are the "distortion of facts and omissions that serve to substantially alter the nature and significance of actual events in our history; insensitivity to the existing religious diversity of the nation; incitement to militancy and violence, including encouragement of jihad and shahadat, perspectives that encourage prejudice, bigotry and discrimination towards fellow citizens, especially women and religious minorities, and other nations, a glorification of war and the use of force." The study points out that the syllabus omits events that could encourage critical self-awareness among students, and includes outdated and incoherent pedagogical practices that "hinder the development of interest and insight among students."

The report further states that the educational material attempts to teach Islamiat to all the students, irrespective of their faith, through the compulsory subjects of Social/Pakistan Studies, Urdu and English. Although non-Muslims are not required to take the fourth compulsory subject of Islamiat, there is an extraordinary incentive for them in the form of 25 per cent additional marks for learning and taking examinations in Islamiat.

According to the report, the post-1979 curricula and textbooks openly eulogise jihad and shahadat and urge students to become mujahids and martyrs. The report dilates on the instructions laid out for students: "Learning outcome: recognise the importance of jihad in every sphere of life; learning outcome: Must be aware of the blessings of jihad; must create a yearning for jihad in his heart; Concept: jihad; Affective objective: Aspiration for jihad; Love and aspiration for jihad, Tableegh (Prosyletisation), jihad, shahadat (martyrdom), sacrifice, ghazi (the victor in holy wars), shaheed (martyr); simple stories to urge for jihad; activity 4: To make speeches on jihad and shahadat; to make speeches on jihad; Evaluation: to judge their spirits while making speeches on jihad, Muslim history and culture, Concepts: jihad, Amar bil Maroof and Nahi Anil Munkar."

The textbooks require every Pakistani, irrespective of his (her) faith, to love, respect, be proud of and practice Islamic principles, traditions, customs, rituals, etc. What the report says is even more disturbing is the fact that non-Muslim students are expected to read the Quran, not in the course study of Islamiat, which they are not required to learn, but in the compulsory subject of Urdu.

Urdu textbooks from Class I to III, which are compulsory for students of all faiths, contain lessons on the Quran. These progress from a lesson titled 'Iqra' in Class I, where Arabic alphabets are introduced, to the lesson entitled 'E'rab' on punctuation in the Class II Urdu book, to the lesson titled 'Quran Parhna' in the Class III Urdu book. In fact, the latter has seven lessons (out of a total of 51) on learning to read the Quran. It is mandatory for non-Muslim students to take these courses and take examinations in them - a clear violation of the rights of religious minorities. The report also states that the National Curriculum of March 2002 lays down the first objective of teaching English: "To make the Quranic principles and Islamic practices an integral part of curricula so that the message of the Holy Quran could be disseminated in the process of education as well as training. To educate and train the future generations of Pakistan as a true practicing Muslim…"

The religious (Islamic) content of the most recently published Urdu textbooks in the Punjab and the Federal Area is worth noting: it features in four out of 25 Islamic lessons in Class one, eight out of 33 lessons in Class-II, 22 out of 44 lessons in Class-III, 10 out of 45 lessons in Class-IV, seven out of 34 lessons in Class-V, 14 out of 46 lessons in Class-VI, six out of 53 lessons in Class-VII, 15 out of 46 lessons in Class-VIII, and 10 out of 68 lessons in Classes IX and X.

The new textbooks are also replete with gender bias. A 1985 study found that girls were shown most often in passive roles, enforcing traditional stereotypes. Experts say matters have not improved over the years, and a "gender-biased division of roles is woven into almost all the exercises and stories in these books, thus we have constant references to men performing active or heroic roles and women engaged in passive, often frippery activities."

The mindset of the policy-makers not only disfigures history at the school level, it also dissuades those at the employment level from questioning or differing from the official line as laid out in the texts. For example, candidates appearing in the Muslim history papers in the Federal Public Services Commission have strictly been advised to condemn Mughul emperor Akbar - known as 'Akbar the Great' for his 50-year-long secular rule over the Indian subcontinent - and eulogise Emperor Aurangzeb, a fundamentalist Muslim who shunned music and most arts as unIslamic.

Similarly, there are unwritten guidelines to condemn Hindus, criticise India, support the Kashmir cause, and refrain from expressing independent or divergent views. All candidates appearing in the country's competitive exams are, in fact, asked to read only the books written by certain authors, and to desist from reading books that do not make it to the prescribed list since these could "confuse" them, leading to their failure in the exams.

Given this backdrop, it would be a fallacy to believe it is only the madrassahs which are indoctrinating children in the politics of hate and bigotry. The country's public schools are equally responsible for the rise of militancy and regressive thought. In the words of Dr. A.H. Nayyar, "The full impact of what happened under General Zia is now being felt in rising religious militancy, sectarianism and violence in our society and our politics, and another generation of young Pakistanis is now going through the same education."

E-mail: newsline@cyber.net.pk
Home | Archives | Advertisement | Subscription Form | About Us | Feedback
Address: D-6 Block 9, Kehkashan, Clifton, Karachi-Pakistan.
Tel: (92-21) 5873947, 5873948, 5869611, 5869612 (Business) Fax: (92-21) 5869610
© Copyright 2001 Newsline Publications (Pvt.) Ltd. All rights reserved.

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsMay2004/NewsspMay1.htm

Therefore, that is Pakistani education and idea of history. Imagine "Pakistan came to be established for the first time when the Arabs under Muhammad bin Qasim occupied Sindh and Multan" and the historical amnesia as establushed by: The pre-Islamic history of the region meanwhile ceased to exist as subject matter. The new curriculum started with the Arab conquest of Sindh and swiftly jumped to the Muslim conquerors from Central Asia.

Therefore, not knowing history in Pakistan of India is not unusual and the anti Indian (Hindu, Christain and minority) frenzy can be well understood if the Koran ulema jihad etc are the sole foundations of Pakistani education and where as the article state that Pakistanis are taught to hate such communites.

Yet, I compliment some Pakistanis on the forum for showing some tolerance inspite of the teaching, even though that feeling sometimes seem to crack under psychological pressures.

No more, enough.

Ray · 01-28-2005, 07:48 AM

The above post is from a Pakistani source.

tarek · 01-28-2005, 12:14 PM

Ray

What makes you so uncomfortable about a idea that is so simple and fair that it's truth is obvious to all but some who rely on hatred to carry the day?

Hate leading to hate leading to more hate, where as the premise of this thread, is simple and truth affirming, it can free all those still suffering from self loathing at being "victims" of Western imperialism.

Once we can acknowledge the truth that the Imperialism experience also brought with it the ideas and tools of not just political but human liberation, we can own our experience, no need to play "victim", to need to reside in darkness and negativity.

"The fact is that the destruction of imperialism lies in its very success, whether that success denotes oppression (as in the case of France in Algeria) or a more benign spirt (as in the case of British in India). Those who fought for the independence of India were educated in British schools and universities and empowered by imperialism. British imperialism produced some of the best minds among us. Again, it will be instructive to compare the intellectual activity of that time — both qualitatively and quantitatively — with what we have achieved since 1947."

Some are telling us that "culture" can only be "authentic" so long as it can claim some native origination, at other times we are presented with the idea that it was rape, pillage and racism that is the essence of the imperialism experience, -- Can we not agree that our only criteria to judge propositions related to culture, be limited to right or wrong and good or bad ?

If we can agree to evaluate the propositions with these criteria, it will then be impossible to deny "The point is not that we should have allowed ourselves to be subjugated. But if the process of struggle between peoples is accepted — and history is nothing but the account of such struggles — then we lacked something and, in the process of natural selection, had to go through the experience of subjugation at that point in history. In order to make use of this experience we need to see its positive side rather than keeping lamenting its seamy side.

Ray · 01-28-2005, 14:49 PM

No idea of getting tangential.

If you can prove all the posts I posted inaccurate, I will go along.

I don't 'hate' - because it a sentiment that leads to nowhere.

Yet, I don't traverse the esoteric or entwine issues with points that don't address the issue. You are not addressing the issues you ahve raised yourself!

The article, you started this thread with, was Imperialism. I have posted articles and commentary of Foreign and sub continental views.

You lauded imperialism and how we should be grateful to the British that they brought civilisation to us and human something or the other and how we were backward in all aspects.

I just posted the articles and commentaries to show that there was a deliberate wiping out of whatever India may have had and instead were braniwashed to believe that it was the British and western thought that gave us whatever we have. Now, if that is lament, do show how it is. Adress this rather than open up other issues since your thoughts are wayward and unifocal.

These articles how how whatever India did before the advent of the Broitish was systematically wiped out. Now, I did not write these articles. They were written by eminent scholars who are internationally recognised. I amusre they are better authorities than you or me!

I also showed how Pakistanis distorted history. In that Pakistan's history started with bin Qasim, then went through historical amnesia and then surface into Islamisation of Pakistan being a manna from the heavens. This was to indicate that as a Pakistani you will naturally not know history. You would naturtrally know that is taught to yu and suffer the same amnesia that is being thrust on you by your history books.

I wish to draw your attention to how you digress on even non scholarly issues since you have no answer. You lauded the word WOG and that it was not deregatory, it being techinically true and yet you have pussyfooted on the word 'PA ki' which is also true.

Get real.

Don't digress.

Speak on Imperialism and not go tangential. Address the issues in the posts relating to imperialism - your subject. It my call now and you have to answer to the points raised. That is ofcourse if you ahve the answers.

Note, I am not lamenting, but you sure a pathetic. Don't stuff ideas which are not mine.

You want proof. I gave it.

Quote:

Hate leading to hate leading to more hate, where as the premise of this thread, is simple and truth affirming, it can free all those still suffering from self loathing at being "victims" of Western imperialism.

Once we can acknowledge the truth that the Imperialism experience also brought with it the ideas and tools of not just political but human liberation, we can own our experience, no need to play "victim", to need to reside in darkness and negativity.

You don't know history since it has not been taught to you. Please read what is being taught in Pakistan from the Pakistani sources I have posted. Neither will you understand what India has given the world since you don;t even read what I have posted from authentic sources, foreign and Indian and Pakistani.

My answer is as stated before:

I am proud that India has a continuity in history. It has a glorious and inglorious past. Indians have a past and they are not people who forget their past and become a people without a past without a name!

I will face the challenge as equals and not as a psycophant just so that some crumbs can be thrown my way.

Also, religion will not cloud my tryst with history or destiny.

So where is the lament? I acknowledge the past. A victim would not.

A person who has not been taught about the past (as in Pakistan's concept of history which is admitted in the Pakistani sources posted above) will not understand what India has contributed because that is not Moslem in context and hence proscribed in Pakistan!

Tarek,

This is beyond you and you are out your depth and so I think I would rather not enjoin in further discussion unless you raise issues to show that the posts I have made are inaccurate.

Thank you, all the same.

tarek · 01-28-2005, 16:02 PM

Ray

In my previous post I have quoted from the lead post of this thread,(In defense of Imperialism)

"The point is not that we should have allowed ourselves to be subjugated. But if the process of struggle between peoples is accepted — and history is nothing but the account of such struggles — then we lacked something and, in the process of natural selection, had to go through the experience of subjugation at that point in history. In order to make use of this experience we need to see its positive side rather than keeping lamenting its seamy side."

You seem intent on arguing the absurd, namely that imperialism sought to destroy Indian (and we have already made clear that there was no such a thing as "indian" unless ofcourse one first accepts it as a creation of the very same imperialists that one is decrying) - how absurd it is that you would argue in English language that the very India you served so many years to serve and protect is any other than the product of the imperial experience.

Once again, quoting from the lead artilce of the thread:

"The fact is that the destruction of imperialism lies in its very success, whether that success denotes oppression (as in the case of France in Algeria) or a more benign spirt (as in the case of British in India). Those who fought for the independence of India were educated in British schools and universities and empowered by imperialism. British imperialism produced some of the best minds among us. Again, it will be instructive to compare the intellectual activity of that time — both qualitatively and quantitatively — with what we have achieved since 1947."

Confed999 · 01-29-2005, 16:04 PM

Imperialism is too costly in the modern world. Even past empires have moved solidly away from the practice. Usually what is called imperialism today, is something much much less...

tarek · 01-29-2005, 16:06 PM

Perhaps it is - but so long as it serves as a transaction method beteen civilizations, it may change but it will not end.

Confed999 · 01-29-2005, 16:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarek

but so long as it serves as a transaction method beteen civilizations

Occupation is not imperialism.

tarek · 01-29-2005, 16:21 PM

Yes, exactly

Patrick Brazil · 01-30-2005, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parihaka

I've been racking my brain trying to come up with a time when ideas crossed boundaries without militarism, maybe the renaissance?

How about America, since 1776?

01-27-2005, 23:15 PM	#46 (permalink)
Rahul Contributor Join Date: 08-28-04 Location: Michigan, United States of America Posts: 377	Tarek, when you told me to "stop this petty scorekeeping" or someting like that for my comment about India giving the West its numerical system a few pages ago (wow, this thread has certainly evolved quickly!), I wasn't trying to keep a score. Sorry if it appeared that way. I was trying to make a larger point that history is full of instances where one civilization or nation or culture absorbed lessons from those that were more advanced than it at the time either through trade and interaction or through being ruled by that country. Much of Britain was once Roman and the Romans were more technologically advanced than the Britons. Now, Rome doesn't exist and Britain of that era doesn't exist either. Imperialism is really only such a controversial issue because it happened recently. I'm of the opinion it was nothing more than a global version of what has been happening since the beginning of civilization. One civilization or people conquered another and imparted technology which was improved by the conquered people and their descendents so that one day roles were reversed. As for the effect on Indian culture, I'd say India is somewhat like China is rather resilient in that respect as a civilization. It integrates and accepts (eventually) ideas brought by new rulers and invaders sooner or later but isn't overcome by them. China though seems to absorb outsiders rather than incorporate them IMO (the Yuan dyansty didn't leave behind a large Mongol imprint like the Mughals did a strong Muslim and Turkic presence on Subcontinent). Also Tarek, I agree that the modern idea of "India" as opposed to the much earlier concept of "Bharat" was conceived under British rule (ironic, isn't it?). However, many other nationalisms arose from the French Revolution on across the world so I don't see anything too odd about that. THe common man (or at least enough people) finally started to feel like India was his and that British rule of it was worth doing something about, just as in the French Revolution, the common Frenchman saw France as his. No doubt though, modern Indian nationalism w Anyhow, my pt. is, imperialism is just the latest manifestation of what's been happening for millenia. EDIT: BTW, I'm not going to get into the debate on culture as I just don't feel I know enough to speak about it. I just wanted to reply to what you said Tarek. __________________ Am out of town for a while and then have tons of work coming up at school. Will be back once that's all done.

01-28-2005, 01:00 AM	#47 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,269 Country:	Tarek, WOG is not a offensive word? Fine, then what the big deal of a Paakistani being called by the short word 'PA ki'? There was big deal made of it on this very forum. Do contact the Admins and inform them it is OK for Pakistanis to be called 'PA ki'. Also don't niptick on words. Do comment on the THREE POSTS I have posted. Do look at the posts in its totality and request do not go tangential for the want of an cognitive answer. As far as Pakistani edication and hisroty is concerned, I sure will comment, thouh I was avoiding it since there is no need to turn this thread into a 'war', but if you wish I have to oblige. Last edited by Ray : 01-28-2005 at 02:11 AM.

01-28-2005, 01:23 AM	#48 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,269 Country:	Tarek, Pakistan's concept of history is limited to the Moslem aspect of history and that too not total as will be noticed in the article below. Pakistan's history does not acknowldge the past history of the Indian subcontinent and it culture. I will tryo post post on that though I think it is already there in one of teh thread on education on this forum). The Moslems do not acknowledge it. Their history starts with teh Moghul, then it becomes sketchy on the British period except of the Moslem aspects and then picks up after Independence. Obviously, when one does not acknowledge the past, they have to rely on British interpretation alone. In fact, all contribution to science, education etc of acclaim that Moslems have done are from Persia and Arabia. Can't blame the Pakistanis. They were Hindus before they converted and they wish to forget their Hindu past. The Shape of Pakistan Pakistan’s Endangered History [Dawn, 4 June 1995] (Ekbal Ahmed is the speaker) It is a great privilege for me to be speaking on this very unique occasion. It is rare among us Pakistanis to honour the Quaid-i-Azam beyond rhetoric, and in a substantive way. Professor Zaidi deserves our gratitude for compiling two volumes of the Jinnah Papers. These are but the tip of Mr. Jinnah’s fragmented archieves, for these 3,000-plus pages cover only four months and ten days of his eventful life, from Feb 20, 1947, to June 30. A total of 50 volumes are projected in this series to be published by the Quaid-i-Azam Papers Project. I know Professor Zaidi to be a driven man who has devoted more than three decades of his life to gathering, restoring, compiling, and editing this national treasure. I am sure that you will join me in wishing him the good health he needs to complete this truly noble mission. I know that his spirit and dedication will not wilt as long as his body holds out. So may you live long, and remain immersed for years to come in the life and times of Pakistan’s founding father. Professor Sahib, as a historian and archivist you have reached the fulfillment of a life-long dream. You have rescued from dire neglect and the dungeons of dictatorship the private papers of Mr. Jinnah. You have been persistent in getting them preserved, catalogued, and published. And today you have the unique pleasure of seeing two of your former students – one at the helm of the state and the other a humble teacher – speak at the launching of the volumes you have compiled. Few historians and fewer teachers can hope to achieve more in lifetime. Our heartiest thanks and congratulations to you. But before I make a final bow to a man’s remarkable accomplishment, I should underline that it is shared with a woman. During the months that became years Parveen Zaidi patiently bore the burnt of professor Zaidi’s highly articulated frustrations with Pakistan’s versatile foot draggers. And she actually helped with the difficult task of restoring and preserving the decayed archives. In the process, she became Pakistan’s first and so far only internationally recognised restorer of manuscripts. Her services have since been sought by international organisations such as UNESCO and governments as far apart as Turkey, Iran, and Malaysia. During the decades of toil with these papers she nursed the good professor through - two heart operations, and shared with him the very tragic loss of the younger of their two sons. I hope you all join me in offering them both our heartfelt thanks and deepest sympathies. I should say a word about the quest for excellence and our people’s response to it. Sadly, there is paucity of excellence in this country. It was not always so in the land of Mohammed Iqbal, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Saadat Hasan Manto, Faiz Ahmed Faiz, and Professor Abdus Salam whom we have all but formally banished from our midst. Hence ordinary citizens are wistfully engaged when they notice someone striving for excellence with a sense of purpose other than getting rich. And they support the endeavour with an enthusiasm that defies expectation. Men like Abdul Sattar Edhi and Dr. Akhtar Hameed Khan will testify to this gratifying phenomenon of civil society in Pakistan. I recall how anxious professor Zaidi had been about finding the people who could help him in organising, collating, and editing the enormous piles of the Quaid-i-Azam’s papers. “This is back-breaking work Eqbal, and it requires perseverance and skill”, I recall Professor Zaidi worrying aloud soon after he had returned to Pakistan three years ago, “I can teach the skill but where shall I find the people with discipline of work and the will to persist? “Well, they appeared, men and women, young and old, determined to help, eager to learn. Learn they did, and help they gave with dogged determination. In the end the Jinnah Papers is as much their achievement as it is Professor and Mrs. Zaidi’s. They are here in this hall deserving of our warmest hand of appreciation. Therein lies an insight which I should underline for the benefit of this and the future leadership of Pakistan: The heart of this country, its people, is clean like spring water, solid as rock, and poetic in its yearning for goodness, justice and enlightenment. Mohammed Ali Jinnah’s greatness lay in sensing this simple truth. He led them with unassailable integrity along a path that promised economic justice, liberation from a constricting past, and an enlightened future. They followed with enthusiasm and dedication, without fear or misgiving, and conferred upon this unlikely barrister the historic honour of becoming the founder of an important state. It is a tragic fact that since his passing this great people, like the Quaid’s material legacies, has suffered from negligence and breach of faith. One price, and by no means the greatest, of this neglect is that neither Mr. Jinnah, nor the movement he led has been accorded serious scholarly attention. Of the four biographies so far published on him, only one, by Stanley Wolpert has scholarly merit and views its subject in the larger context of colonial and nationalist politics. And apart from Dr. Saleem Ahmed’s book which covers the years 1906-1921, no serious work has been done on the Muslim League and the Pakistan movement. Archives are the memory bank of a nation; and works of history articulate that memory in organised, meaningful ways. It is truly tragic that our archives suffer from neglect and fragmentation, and historians are nearly extinct in Pakistan. To make matters worse, we are bringing up ill-informed generations who are being taught in schools poisonous and ideologically loaded distortions as history. An early exposure to this phenomenon was provided in a pioneering essay entitled “Rewriting the History of Pakistan” by Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy and Abdul Hameed Nayyar which appears in ‘Islam, Politics and the State’, edited by Air Marshal Asghar Khan. A greater service was rendered later by Professor K.K. Aziz’s ‘ The Murder of History in Pakistan.’ The process of polluting the sources of knowledge in this country had begun earlier; it climaxed in the dictatorship of Ziaul Haq who obviously perceived educational institutions as an important instrument of consolidating his tyranny in the name of Islam and an invention labeled the “Ideology of Pakistan”. The General declared as compulsory the teaching of Pakistan Studies in degree colleges, including engineering and medical institutions. The rewriting of history proceeded then on a grand scale. The University Grants Commission issued a directive informing prospective textbook writers that the aim of the new course is to “induce pride for the nation’s past, enthusiasm for the present (sic), and unshakable faith in the stability and longevity of Pakistan”. Lest this leaves some ambiguity, therefore room for accommodating some canons of historiography, authors were given the following guidelines: “To demonstrate that the basis of Pakistan is not to be found in racial, linguistic or geographical factors, but, rather, in the shared experience of a common religion. To get students to know and appreciate the Ideology of Pakistan, and to popularise it with slogans. To guide students towards the ultimate goal of Pakistan – the creation of a complete Islamised state.” I do not know of any country’s educational system that so explicitly subordinates knowledge to politics. Teaching and writing of history, always in jeopardy in Pakistan, has now passed from historians to hacks. They have invented a history that historians, of whom only a handful are left in Pakistan, shall not recognise. The Quaid-i-Azam was among their first victims: he underwent a metamorphosis becoming a man of orthodox religious views who sought the creation of a theocratic state and the Ulema, who with rare exceptions had opposed Jinnah and the Pakistan movement, emerged as heroes and founding fathers of Pakistan. The Jinnah Papers are rebuke and reminder of the distortions to which our history has been subjected. They also ensure that future historians shall have easy access to the real Jinnah and the movement he led. Professor Zaidi has ideas on how to preserve and consolidate our sorely neglected and fragmented archives. I beg for a national effort to review and revise the curricula and textbooks of history and Pakistan Studies in our schools. To no do so is to condemn future Pakistani generations to ignorance and obscurantism. Last edited by Ray : 01-28-2005 at 01:44 AM.

01-28-2005, 01:35 AM	#49 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,269 Country:	“I am a Muslim and profoundly conscious of that fact that I have inherited Islam's glorious tradition of the last thirteen hundred years. I am not prepared to lose even a small part of that legacy. The history and teachings of Islam, its art and letters, its cultural and civilization are part of my wealth and it is my duty to cherish and guard them... But, with all these feelings, I have another equally deep realization born out of my life's experience, which is strengthened and not hindered by the Islamic spirit. I am equally proud of the fact that I am an Indian, an essential part of the indivisible unity of Indian nationhood, a vital factor in its total makeup, without which this noble edifice will remain incomplete. I can never give up this sincere claim.” - Maulana Abul Kalam Azad The exiled Czech writer Kundera once wrote: ["A name means continuity with the past and people without a past are people without a name." Lastly, I have no mentality of being a 'victim'. No siree. I, however, am aware of my country's history and legacy, all of it, be the Ancient or Modern. Be it, Pagan, Vedic, Hindu, Moslem or Christian. Each part of that history has something to tell. I will not run away from the past. I use them to look to the future with resolve and come to grips with reality rather than be an escapist or try to curry favours with the Jones. I am proud that India has a continuity in history. It has a glorious and inglorious past. Indians have a past and tehy are not people who forget their past and become a people without a past without a name! I will face the challenge as equals and not as a psycophant just so that some crumbs can be thrown my way. Also, religion will not cloud my tryst with history or destiny. Last edited by Ray : 01-28-2005 at 02:05 AM.

01-28-2005, 12:14 PM	#52 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	Ray What makes you so uncomfortable about a idea that is so simple and fair that it's truth is obvious to all but some who rely on hatred to carry the day? Hate leading to hate leading to more hate, where as the premise of this thread, is simple and truth affirming, it can free all those still suffering from self loathing at being "victims" of Western imperialism. Once we can acknowledge the truth that the Imperialism experience also brought with it the ideas and tools of not just political but human liberation, we can own our experience, no need to play "victim", to need to reside in darkness and negativity. "The fact is that the destruction of imperialism lies in its very success, whether that success denotes oppression (as in the case of France in Algeria) or a more benign spirt (as in the case of British in India). Those who fought for the independence of India were educated in British schools and universities and empowered by imperialism. British imperialism produced some of the best minds among us. Again, it will be instructive to compare the intellectual activity of that time — both qualitatively and quantitatively — with what we have achieved since 1947." Some are telling us that "culture" can only be "authentic" so long as it can claim some native origination, at other times we are presented with the idea that it was rape, pillage and racism that is the essence of the imperialism experience, -- Can we not agree that our only criteria to judge propositions related to culture, be limited to right or wrong and good or bad ? If we can agree to evaluate the propositions with these criteria, it will then be impossible to deny "The point is not that we should have allowed ourselves to be subjugated. But if the process of struggle between peoples is accepted — and history is nothing but the account of such struggles — then we lacked something and, in the process of natural selection, had to go through the experience of subjugation at that point in history. In order to make use of this experience we need to see its positive side rather than keeping lamenting its seamy side. __________________ _____________________ when they make no laws but what they themselves and their posterity must be subject to; when they can give no money, but what they must pay their share of; when they can do no mischief, but what must fall upon their own heads in common with their countrymen; their principals may expect then good laws, little mischief, and much frugality

01-28-2005, 07:48 AM	#51 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,269 Country:	The above post is from a Pakistani source.

01-28-2005, 16:02 PM	#54 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	Ray In my previous post I have quoted from the lead post of this thread,(In defense of Imperialism) "The point is not that we should have allowed ourselves to be subjugated. But if the process of struggle between peoples is accepted — and history is nothing but the account of such struggles — then we lacked something and, in the process of natural selection, had to go through the experience of subjugation at that point in history. In order to make use of this experience we need to see its positive side rather than keeping lamenting its seamy side." You seem intent on arguing the absurd, namely that imperialism sought to destroy Indian (and we have already made clear that there was no such a thing as "indian" unless ofcourse one first accepts it as a creation of the very same imperialists that one is decrying) - how absurd it is that you would argue in English language that the very India you served so many years to serve and protect is any other than the product of the imperial experience. Once again, quoting from the lead artilce of the thread: "The fact is that the destruction of imperialism lies in its very success, whether that success denotes oppression (as in the case of France in Algeria) or a more benign spirt (as in the case of British in India). Those who fought for the independence of India were educated in British schools and universities and empowered by imperialism. British imperialism produced some of the best minds among us. Again, it will be instructive to compare the intellectual activity of that time — both qualitatively and quantitatively — with what we have achieved since 1947."

01-29-2005, 16:04 PM	#55 (permalink)
Confed999 Staff Emeritus Join Date: 09-10-03 Location: Florida Posts: 10,681 Country:	Imperialism is too costly in the modern world. Even past empires have moved solidly away from the practice. Usually what is called imperialism today, is something much much less... __________________ No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

01-29-2005, 16:06 PM	#56 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	Perhaps it is - but so long as it serves as a transaction method beteen civilizations, it may change but it will not end.

01-29-2005, 16:21 PM	#58 (permalink)
tarek *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-06-03 Posts: 996	Yes, exactly