Parihaka

sorry Ray, I was being a bit facetious with my first post about life of brian.
The problem I had was the same as the author, differentiating between imperialism and the spread of good ideas. Of course they are separate, and Imperialism is almost always about conquest and control of resources.

Tarek, you can label it as trade, but from the very beginning, it was acheived through force of arms. From memory, and I'd have to check my sources, the first british incursions in India were to control ports as a stop-over to the spice islands. (taken from the Dutch?). Definitely force of arms anyway, as part of control of the spice trade.

__________________
In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Ray

Tarek,

On education please google Macaulay. You will know why British education came to Undivided India.

Racism is surely wring but the courage to face the truth is an equally important aspect of any human being. As the saying goes - you can be a friend of an enemy even, with the loss of character. The choice is entirely of the person.

Danish pastries and their like is no boon to me that the colonials left. If you prefer frogs leg or truffles that are dug out by piugs, you are welcome. I eat what I find is OK for me and I don't look to find what is the country of origin of the dish.

I do agree there are many (possibly you too) who go gaga because it is French cuisine or Italian cuisine. I share no burden of such colonial baggage or that education and sophistication comes through knowing English or French or chomping gluttonously through some rubbery pasta or whatever, or taking insipid Japaense seaweed and sake (BTW, the maids of the olden time drank sake which was only good for Indian maids! ).

Good for you. Bring back the British to Pakistan since you feel they alone can help little natives of Pakistan. What can I say if you want them back and since you feel that you guys are not up to it to make your country grreat.

I do appreciate what the British have done. But taht doesn;t mean that we cant't do it on our own or that we should beholden to them or that they came to India do do a
favour' to the dark little Injuns of undivided India!

Remember Bhadur Shah Zaffar, teh last of the Moguls? He was surely emancipated by having the British in India.

Kia badnazzed hai Zafar.
Do kui zameen bhi na mile
Dafan ke lie.

Ray

The Raven

Edgar Allen Poe

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door
" 'T is some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door-
Only this and nothing more."
Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December;
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow;-vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow-sorrow for the lost Lenore-
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore-
Nameless here for evermore.
Then the silken, sad, uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me-filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating,
" 'T is some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door-
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door;-
This it is and nothing more."
Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
"Sir," said I, "or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you"-here I opened wide the door;-
Darkness there and nothing more."
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, "Lenore?"
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, "Lenore!"
Merely this and nothing more.
Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping somewhat louder than before.
"Surely," said I, "surely that is something at my window lattice;
Let me see, then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore-
Let my heart be still a moment and this mystery explore;-
'T is the wind and nothing more!"
Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and flutter,
In there stepped a stately Raven of the saintly days of yore;
Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed he;
But, with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door-
Perched upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door-
Perched, and sat, and nothing more.
Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore,
"Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou," I said,"art sure no craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient Raven wandering from the Nightly shore-
Tell me what they lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!"
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
Much I marvelled the ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning-little relevancy bore;
For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blessed with seeing bird above his chamber door-
Bird or beast upon the culptured bust above his chamber door,
With such name as "Nevermore."
But the Raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
Nothing farther then he uttered-not a feather then he fluttered-
Till I scarcely more than muttered, "Other friends have flown before-
On the morrow he will leave me, as my Hopes have flown before."
Then the bird said, "Nevermore."
Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
"Doubtless," said I, "what it utters is its only stock and store
Caught from some unhappy master whom unmerciful Disaster
Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore-
Till the dirges of his Hope that melancholy burden more
Of 'Never-nevermore.'"
But the Raven still beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of bird and bust and door;
Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore-
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt, and ominous bird of yore
Meant in croaking "Nevermore."
This I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the fowl whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom's core;
This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
On the cushion's velvet lining that the lamp-light gloating o'er,
But whose velvet-violet lining with the lamp-light gloating o'er,
She shall press, ah, nevermore!
Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.
"Wretch," I cried, "thy God hath lent thee-by these angels he hath sent thee
Respite-respite and nepenthe from thy memories of Lenore;
Quaff, oh, quaff this kind nepenthe and forget this lost Lenore!"
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
"Prophet!" said I, "thing of evil!-prophet still, if bird or devil!-
By that Heaven that bends above us-by that God we both adore-
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant
Aidenn, It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels name Lenore-
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore."
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
"Be that word our sign of parting, bird or fiend!" I shrieked, upstarting-
"Get thee back into the tempest and the Night's Plutonian shore!
Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken!-quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!"
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
And the Raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted-nevermore!

Ray

The above post should be read carefully.

Much can be fathomed. It is powerful. It has even meaning in what we are talking about.

Yet, the Benefits of the English language deprives me of the beauty of Bhadur Shah Zafffar's couplet, which is lost on me somewhat!

Which is better?

To me both.

But sadly, I know English but not my languages!

Education that you talk about? Maybe and maybe not.

Read Omar Khayam's Rubaiyats in the orginal and then in Fitzgerald's translation. Which is education and which is lost in education?

tarek

Ray

Lets spare each other the lunacy of "authenticity" - If my uncle was my aunt...

Bahadur Shah Zafar - Did he or his ancestors ever think of their possession as anything other ? I have no tears for Bahadur Shah -- And I really loved that bit about "undivided India" -, amigo without the Western imperialim, ther would be no such a thing as a idea of the landmass of the subcontinent as a single country - this idea too, is entirely Western in origin.

What did we lose in the decision which made aRABVIC AND HINDI useless languages - I don't know if we can know that - and if we cannot know this, why should we spend time on it?

We do know the tremendous political, social and economic value transformations we have experienced and in every sense we are better off with the ideas that first made their way with Western imperialism.

In the realm of politics, mass political participation and representation, an idea wholly alien to our experience prior to the arrival of Western imperialism. think about notions of "equality of opportunity" -- for God's sake, the very notion "equality" was alien to us and think about the social transformation, with caste and religious idenitites.

We must make an effort to be be fair, for ourselves. Would I want to see hundreds of thousands, even millions of Englishers or French or Americans or Russians living in Pakistan? You bet I would, after all hundredsof thousandsof pAKISTANIS LIVE IN uk AND fRANCE AND us and people ought to be able to live anywhere they want to, as long as the law allows.

__________________
_____________________

when they make no laws but what they themselves and their posterity must be subject to; when they can give no money, but what they must pay their share of; when they can do no mischief, but what must fall upon their own heads in common with their countrymen; their principals may expect then good laws, little mischief, and much frugality

Ray

Tarek,

You take the high raod and I take the low.
I will reach England before ye.

BREATHES there the man with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
'This is my own, my native land!'
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burn'd
As home his footsteps he hath turn'd
From wandering on a foreign strand?
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour'd, and unsung.

Anyway, who it talking about going to foreign lands.
You go to other lands to day as equals and not as second class natives fawning before the British.
They come to our without arrogance as a superior race.

That is what is the difference. All are equal. And hence there is progress.

You talk of imperialism as a boon. Is it so? While obscruatism is stupid, but imperialism is no great shakes as the red badge of emancipation- at least to me.

If you feel taht being a subject race is a super thing, please become a subject race again. I am happy and also emancipated not being a subject race, but as an equal partner to all.

Let Ejaz Haider be the front runner to bring back imperialist to Pakistan. I can;t stop him.

tarek

Ray

Calm yourself, the idea of the thread is to challenege the comfort zone, but perhaps the comfort of old certainties will not accept any challenge.

"If you feel taht being a subject race is a super thing, please become a subject race again"

Agaian rhetoric instead of fact - there is no subject race, nor has anybody suggested that if there were, that it would be the thing to be.

The idea is simple, it is a proposition suggesting that we look at our historical experience with more fairness than we have done - and if we should do that, we may conclude that Western Imperialism has been very different from the charge we have too often laid at it's door step.

Especially with regard to India, if today, India are poised for, success, if today Indian can effect the course of the English language, if today Indian can effect the political and geo-strategic course of the world, then, Indian must acknowledge that all these were the fruit of the seeds of western imperialism.

Why does this seem to give you heartburn?

Ray

There is no heartburn at all.

I can't imagine that 'enslaving' is good for one's destiny, emancipation, human liberation (or whatever you wrote) and other pious platitudes.

You don't even admit that a subject race has not the right of the race that is the imperialist power.

Hotels were whites only with words like 'Indians and Dogs' are not allowed (Indians included Jinnah and other who went off to make a new nation called Pakistan). One could not travel in a Ist class compartment even if one had a ticket for the same. One could go on but there is no idea of digging up these horrible things because it vitiates the bonhomie.

Take Jinnah. He forsook his native roots including religion. To be with the Jones since he was a high profile barrister, he ate pig (ham and bacon) and his habits were cultivated British. It was wonderful isn't it that they were mocked by the very British whose acceptance they craved for by being called WOGs!

Now that is emancipation and human liberation - licking the boots of the British and ape-ing them and getting a kick in the teeth, which they accepted with 'good grace' as per the imperialists desires.

It is fruitless to discuss further.

I have appreciated the good of any community, race or nation. However, I don;t find imperialism a great manna from Heaven for which I have to sing hossanas in a thread!

Thank you. Enjoy kowtowing and sing hossanas to the British Royals of today and yesteryears for all the boon and emancipation they gave you and those in what is now called Pakistan..

tarek

Ray

There is no such a thing as uninterpreted history - you view the experience as one that was painful, I am not suggesting that it was not, however; the experience brought much that was also positive, we ought to acknowledge that.


"Enslaved", "Subject races" "no dogs or Indians" - Yes, there is no denying this aspect of the experience, but on the other hand can we deny Congress party, democracy, secularism which can by way of the imperialism experience?

But now you also have a problem with Jinnah?

"Enjoy kowtowing and sing hossanas to the British Royals of today and yesteryears for all the boon and emancipation they gave you and those in what is now called Pakistan"

Easy on, you run out of medication? The same British also gave you India.

Why such hysterics, ray, something about the topic rubs u the wrong way, maybe it's the denial of a comfort zone, one less bunch to blame - whatever it is, take easy and try discuss the issues.

ChrisF202

Colonialism had its good and its bad. But lets face it, without it Africa, India, Carribean Islands, SE Asia, etc would be much further behind then they are now. Colonialism brought roads, schools, hospitals, judicial system/law enforcement, modern building techniques, etc

ZFBoxcar

Africa could not really be further behind than it is now. Whether or not it would be this way with or without colonialism is anyone's guess. India and SE Asia are doing fairly well NOW, but you and I do not know where they would be had colonialism not occured. After all, Western technological superiority happend almost entirely over the course of a couple centuries. Perhaps the East would have matched it on their own. Also, the benifits are really rather phoney considering that the colonies were not really allowed to build anything on their own because they were designed to be markets for the industrial goods of the colonial country. This kept the colonies in a feudal economy. The few benifits do not outweigh the paralysis in economic development they suffered. I do see Tarek's point though, that it could have been much worse. I don't think the West had exactly evil intentions in engaging in imperialism, and that may have somewhat tempered their actions...but it does not make the practice of imperialism okay or good.

Parihaka

your assumption is that these things couldn't develop without colonialism/imperialism. what would India look like today if neither the english nor the russians (the other threat of the time) had taken it over? Would trade, as Tarek suggested, have happened? would the various 'principalities' have merged/annexed each other? Would India today have schools, roads, electronic communication, stable government and all the rest of the 'benefits' without imperialism?

tarek

Parihaka


Please lets not deal in fantasy - Fact of the matter is that we would be wasting time asking questions like, well, why would schools not have developed a curriculum of science without Western imperialism -- recall that the very idea of education for all, the idea of "citizenship" - these are all products of western imperialism.

Other interlocutors have allowed their pride to get the better of their reason, but if we were to be truthful, we would admit that societies in which Western Imperialism gained ground, were never the ideal archtypical societies - think for instance of India, think of caste, of religious identities and if there were "subject races", it was the natives who were subjects, or slaves, of their native overlord. If the English were discriminatory towards us, were we not even more discrimnatory aganst each other.

It maT BE difficult to admit, but if our societies were really so much better off with out imperialism, how is it that we welcomed the imperial experience? And for those who calim that they did not welcome the imperial experience, let us ask, did they not embrace Western education? Did they not embrace the idea of education as a right, or did they not embrace the entore notion of human beings having "rights and responsibilities"?

Why is it so difficult to simply be fair and by doing so, be truthful - truth can still set us all free. And just by itself it is valuable.

Rahul

Tarek, I'm perfectly willing to admit that western Imperialism had its benefits for my ancestors in their little village in India so long as Europeans are willing to admit that their modern numerical system came from India.

While I would have preferred for India to have been like Japan, absorbing the lessons the West had to offer without being under the rule of a Western power, what happened is what happened and modern Indians and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have no one to blame but themselves for it happening as much of the conquest of India by the Brits was done by sepoys in the pay of the Brit. East India Company, not by English troops.

Anyhow, to be truthful, imperialism had its benefits. India received capital and was endowed with a railway system second to none in Asia, a postal system, etc. At the same time, it had its drawbacks as the people had little say in matters, development of industries to compete with those in Britain was discouraged, etc. So it went.

Chris F202, an important pt I want to make regarding what you said is that the disparity between Asia and Europe prior to colonization was very little compared to that between Europe and sub-saharan Africa, Europe and the Americas, Asia and Africa, or Asia and the Americas prior to their colonizations by European powers.

__________________
Am out of town for a while and then have tons of work coming up at school. Will be back once that's all done.

tarek

Rahul


Maybe this thread is really abou: The uniqueness of experience, the absolute "poverty of historicism" -- Could native societies have evolved in the way they have without Western imperialism? It's a silly question, afterall, native societies were never the same as the societies of the West, they did not have the same kinds of ideas and experiences.

India gave the world numbers? OK, sure but it would be petty to keep such scores, the larger point is that India by way of the imperial experience, reinvented itself, redefined it's cultural bases and culturla identities and knowledge and incorporated these into the cultures and societies which introduced it to the experience of Western Imperialism - English is littered with Hindi, in fact Indians make up the largest English speaking, reading, group in the world, millions, particularly the so called arrogant English enjoy what they call "curry", "Balti" restaurants seem to do good business - so, not just numbers, but entire civilizational exchanges, not just some history, but new civilizations.

Look at Africa, the same is also true about Africa, The imperial experience and in particular the experience with the English, transformed the African, actually, it recreated the African, it created the idea of "African".

Some have pointed to the experience of "racism" that also accompanied Western imperialism - but lets be fair, we cannot deny this, on the other hand, lets at least acknowledge that the very idea we use to condemn "discrimination" (racism) is also the product of the imperial experience.

In other words, we have charged imperialism with excesses and failures, not from within a native cultural or ethical or moral context, but from a Western one - and we have done so because it is not possible to do any other. Let those who mouth off about the "virtues" of native culture and kowtowing explain why this is so.