China's Powerful Weakness

Ray · 04-30-2008, 15:09 PM

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China's Powerful Weakness

The fiasco of the Olympic torch relay has focused attention on human rights in China. What is the source of human rights abuses in that country today?

Many people assume the problem is that China remains a communist dictatorship and that abuses occur because a strong, centralized state ignores the rights of its citizens. With regard to Tibet and the suppression of the religious movement Falun Gong, this may be right. But the larger problem in today's China arises out of the fact that the central Chinese state is in certain ways too weak to defend the rights of its people.

The vast majority of abuses against the rights of ordinary Chinese citizens -- peasants who have their land taken away without just compensation, workers forced to labor under sweatshop conditions or villagers poisoned by illegal dumping of pollutants -- occur at a level far below that of the government in Beijing.

China's peculiar road toward modernization after 1978 was powered by "township and village enterprises" -- local government bodies given the freedom to establish businesses and enter into the emerging market economy. These entities were enormously successful, and many have become extraordinarily rich and powerful. In cahoots with private developers and companies, it is they that are producing conditions resembling the satanic mills of early industrial England.

The central government, by all accounts, would like to crack down on these local government bodies but is unable to do so. It both lacks the capacity to do this and depends on local governments and the private sector to produce jobs and revenue.

The Chinese Communist Party understands that it is riding a tiger. Each year, there are several thousand violent incidents of social protest, each one contained and suppressed by state authorities, who nevertheless cannot seem to get at the underlying source of the unrest.

Americans traditionally distrust strong central government and champion a federalism that distributes powers to state and local governments. The logic of wanting to move government closer to the people is strong, but we often forget that tyranny can be imposed by local oligarchies as much as by centralized ones. In the history of the Anglophone world, it is not the ability of local authorities to check the central government but rather a balance of power between local authorities and a strong central government that is the true cradle of liberty.

The 19th century British legal scholar Sir Henry Sumner Maine, in his book "Early Law and Custom," pointed to this very fact in a fine essay titled "France and England." He notes that the single most widespread complaint written in the cahiers produced on the eve of the French Revolution were complaints by peasants over encroachments of their property rights by seigneurial courts. According to Maine, judicial power in France was decentralized and under the control of the local aristocracy.

By contrast, from the time of the Norman conquest, the English monarchy had succeeded in establishing a strong, uniform and centralized system of justice. It was the king's courts that protected non-elite groups from depredations by the local aristocracy. The failure of the French monarchy to impose similar constraints on local elites was one of the reasons the peasants who sacked manor houses during the revolution went straight to the room containing the titres to property that they felt had been stolen from them.

State weakness can hurt the cause of liberty. The Polish and Hungarian aristocracies were able to impose their equivalents of the Magna Carta on their monarchs; those countries' central governments, unlike their English counterpart, remained far too weak in subsequent generations to protect the peasantry from the local lords, not to speak of protecting their countries as a whole from outside invasion.

The same was true in the United States. "States' rights" and federalism were the banner under which local elites in the South could oppress African Americans, both before and after the Civil War. American liberty is the product of decentralized government balanced by a strong central state -- one that is capable, when necessary, of sending the National Guard to Little Rock to protect the right of black children to attend school.

It is hard to know if and when freedom will emerge in 21st century China. It may be the first country where demand for accountable government is driven primarily by concern over a poisoned environment. But it will come about only when popular demand for some form of downward accountability on the part of local governments and businesses is supported by a central government strong enough to force local elites to obey the country's rules.

Francis Fukuyama is the author of "The End of History and the Last Man."

China's powerful weakness - Los Angeles Times

An interesting commentary.

Indeed, it is possible, since opening up to a Capitalist of of economy after years of deprivation, has opened up the eyes of the powerful amongst the local peasants, who have become greedy and are the very overlords the Communists of Mao fought to liberate the serfs of China.

But then those indoctrinated with Mao's philosophy and seething with anger at the social and economic imbalance will naturally rebel!

Indeed, China is riding a Tiger!!

FOE · 04-30-2008, 22:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

An interesting commentary.

Quote:

Indeed, it is possible, since opening up to a Capitalist of of economy after years of deprivation, has opened up the eyes of the powerful amongst the local peasants, who have become greedy and are the very overlords the Communists of Mao fought to liberate the serfs of China.

Evrything is possible!
Opening up to a Capitalist of of economy is advantageous for our power!Anything has two sides! We will see it better or worse!

Quote:

But then those indoctrinated with Mao's philosophy and seething with anger at the social and economic imbalance will naturally rebel!

yes,there is anger at the social and economic imbalance ,but rebel?We should see the level of anger!Do you heard the theory of "harmonious sociaty"?

Quote:

China is a riding Tiger!

China is a going Tiger!

GO CHINA!!!

Inst · 04-30-2008, 22:45 PM

Isn't it true that the CPC is more concerned about internal criticism than external criticism? Because at the end of the day, the people who are most willing to overthrow the government live within China, not outside of China. This is why China bothered to buy nukes in the first place, so that it would be relatively impervious to external attack.

Ray · 05-01-2008, 01:48 AM

[quote=FOE;491103]

Quote:

Evrything is possible!
Opening up to a Capitalist of of economy is advantageous for our power!Anything has two sides! We will see it better or worse!

No. Everything does not have two sides. An octagon has eight sides!!!

Why did Mao not open up to Capitalism, if it was the way to Power? You may say that he overthrew the KMT to bring liberty to the serfs of China and give a better deal to the Peasants. Indeed, that might have been the reason, but then having overthrown the KMT, he should have left it to the people to decide on their govt, through election or some such mechanism. Instead, he installed himself as the Chief Peasant, Chief Worker, Chairman or whatever nomenclature the Communist like to show equality, when in actuality, it is gross inequality!! All the pious platitudes of the Communists are mere smokescreen to hide the quest for Power and Self Aggrandisement!!

Quote:

yes,there is anger at the social and economic imbalance ,but rebel?We should see the level of anger!Do you heard the theory of "harmonious sociaty"?

Chinese Farmers Rebel Against Bureaucracy
Chinese Farmers Rebel Against Bureaucracy - New York Times

All the harmonious society and all that is opiates to fool the people into forgetting the disharmony.

These pious platitudes homilies don't impress since we are not that poetic and are realists.

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China is a going Tiger!

GO CHINA!!!

I hope you are aware that the Tiger is going extinct and more so because of China and its traditional medicine preparation!!

The world is now trying to conserve the Tiger.

The world is also helping China's economy and I hope it does not become extinct as the Tiger!

I don't say Go China,

I say Stay China!!

FOE · 05-01-2008, 07:40 AM

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No. Everything does not have two sides. An octagon has eight sides!!!

A ball just as well!How many sides can you count??

Quote:

Why did Mao not open up to Capitalism, if it was the way to Power? You may say that he overthrew the KMT to bring liberty to the serfs of China and give a better deal to the Peasants. Indeed, that might have been the reason, but then having overthrown the KMT, he should have left it to the people to decide on their govt, through election or some such mechanism. Instead, he installed himself as the Chief Peasant, Chief Worker, Chairman or whatever nomenclature the Communist like to show equality, when in actuality, it is gross inequality!! All the pious platitudes of the Communists are mere smokescreen to hide the quest for Power and Self Aggrandisement!!

Yes,Mao who is not GOD made some mistakes!

But I don't think we need the election ,because China is China!Election is your way,of course you think it's better,but I think China should have it's own way which is different from the western way!Just look Iran,I don't think western way is the best way for China!

Quote:

Chinese Farmers Rebel Against Bureaucracy - New York Times

I do not trust the western media just like not trust CNN!!!

Quote:

I hope you are aware that the Tiger is going extinct and more so because of China and its traditional medicine preparation!!

We are not Tiger,we are Long!!!So we won't extinct!

Quote:

The world is now trying to conserve the Tiger.

IS the world now trying to conserve your country-India?
I think it's conserving!But maybe you don't know!

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The world is also helping China's economy and I hope it does not become extinct as the Tiger!

How can the world one hand conserving,on the other hand helping?

Quote:

I don't say Go China,

I say Stay China!!

yes ,you didn't say GO CHINA!
Stay?

GO GO GO CHINA, I say!

dave lukins · 05-01-2008, 07:50 AM

[QUOTE=FOE;491204]A ball just as well!How many sides can you count??QUOTE]

The inside and the outside

FOE · 05-01-2008, 07:58 AM

How many?

Ray · 05-01-2008, 10:04 AM

Try d/dx of x.

Calculus.

Ray · 05-01-2008, 10:07 AM

Foe,

Mao is not God, but he was treated like one.

Whatever he said, was the Gospel.

China is China, of that there is no doubts, but could you explain your system as to how the opinion and desires of the common workers and peasants are addressed in China>

Why is there no newspapers that are not Govt controlled since the newspapers generally give the opinions and desires of the people.

FOE · 05-01-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Foe,

Mao is not God, but he was treated like one.

Whatever he said, was the Gospel.

China is China, of that there is no doubts, but could you explain your system as to how the opinion and desires of the common workers and peasants are addressed in China>

Why is there no newspapers that are not Govt controlled since the newspapers generally give the opinions and desires of the people.

MAO is not a God now in china,we can appraisal him equally!

In china now ,the common workers and peasants won't agree with your viewpoint ，I promise！

Freely speech need a process！Would you agree that this problem is better than before?

**astralis** · 05-01-2008, 13:48 PM

FOE,

Quote:

In china now ,the common workers and peasants won't agree with your viewpoint ，I promise！

LOL, what would you know about working with the common worker and peasants? did you go around asking each one of the several hundred peasants?

Quote:

Election is your way,of course you think it's better,but I think China should have it's own way which is different from the western way

which is why the CPC went for village elections, and why reformers since the 1980s have been talking about elections up to provincial level by 2050.

FOE · 05-01-2008, 14:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralis

FOE,

LOL, what would you know about working with the common worker and peasants? did you go around asking each one of the several hundred peasants?

My friends ,my parents,my classmates,my partners...enough?
I needn't to ask ,I talk with them.

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which is why the CPC went for village elections, and why reformers since the 1980s have been talking about elections up to provincial level by 2050.

Your view is your view!You can suggest,but you can't force us to accept your way!China is China!We have our own way whichh of course different with yours!
Do you think election is the BEST?
How can you explain the bribe in your election?

Ray · 05-01-2008, 14:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOE

MAO is not a God now in china,we can appraisal him equally!

In china now ,the common workers and peasants won't agree with your viewpoint ，I promise！

Freely speech need a process！Would you agree that this problem is better than before?

Your promise must also be supported by the ground realities.

Of the very little that emerges out of China, the people who have been displaced by the Olympic showcasing are not too enamoured!

Free speech need no process.

It come naturally to any human being but not to a mechanical robot.

You are experiencing free speech on this very forum!!

Try it in China and you will experience a re-education camp!!

FOE · 05-01-2008, 14:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Your promise must also be supported by the ground realities.

Of the very little that emerges out of China, the people who have been displaced by the Olympic showcasing are not too enamoured!

Free speech need no process.

It come naturally to any human being but not to a mechanical robot.

!

yes,we have many sides to improve!But improve need time to change !Just like I think you need a process too.A process to clear the bias to chinese and CPC!

Quote:

You are experiencing free speech on this very forum!!

Try it in China and you will experience a re-education camp

ray,
IN this side ,I give you a full promise --I can try,not try, I speak in china like I speak here!Even I can say many words which I unware to say here,because i do not want to be baned!So in china even you are more freely than here!

Ray · 05-01-2008, 15:39 PM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOE

yes,we have many sides to improve!But improve need time to change !Just like I think you need a process too.A process to clear the bias to chinese and CPC!

No homilies please!

No obfuscation either!

Quote:

ray,
IN this side ,I give you a full promise --I can try,not try, I speak in china like I speak here!Even I can say many words which I unware to say here,because i do not want to be baned!So in china even you are more freely than here!

Lead me to the site in China where you speak more freely than here.

We can have the Colonel translate the same.

I am sure you can speak most freely when you toe the party line!! That is no surprise to me either!!

You are like the Russian, who was told that Clinton could be criticised in America by Americans without being put in jail and so there was total freedom of speech in the US.

The Russian replied that he too had this freedom of speech - he too could criticise Clinton in Russia, without being put in jail either!!

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04-30-2008, 22:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
Inst Patron Join Date: 12-17-06 Posts: 197	Isn't it true that the CPC is more concerned about internal criticism than external criticism? Because at the end of the day, the people who are most willing to overthrow the government live within China, not outside of China. This is why China bothered to buy nukes in the first place, so that it would be relatively impervious to external attack.

05-01-2008, 07:50 AM	#6 (permalink)
dave lukins *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-04-07 Location: cheshire uk Posts: 4,750 Country:	[QUOTE=FOE;491204]A ball just as well!How many sides can you count??QUOTE] The inside and the outside

05-01-2008, 07:58 AM	#7 (permalink)
FOE Banished Regular Join Date: 04-27-08 Location: qingyang Posts: 113 Country:	How many?

05-01-2008, 10:04 AM	#8 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,149 Country:	Try d/dx of x. Calculus.

05-01-2008, 10:07 AM	#9 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,149 Country:	Foe, Mao is not God, but he was treated like one. Whatever he said, was the Gospel. China is China, of that there is no doubts, but could you explain your system as to how the opinion and desires of the common workers and peasants are addressed in China> Why is there no newspapers that are not Govt controlled since the newspapers generally give the opinions and desires of the people.

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