chinese culture and politics 101 - Page 2

luffaman · 04-26-2008, 20:03 PM

To ned kelly:

"i laugh every time i hear anyone explain chinese culture like this."
great! so in your opinion, chinese culture also functions as a entertainment tool. i would love to add that to my new version of chinese culture 101, if you don't mind.

"I even heard the IOC chief Rogge say "
though no sure who is rogge (i prefer names like rosemary or ruth), but i am very happy for you that you found a chinese expert by yourself.

luffaman · 04-26-2008, 21:03 PM

at certain level i agree with you, colonel.

I am a little bit oversimplying things.

ancient chinese are trouble makers or even trouble seekers, if you ever read stories on Ban Chao 班超 in Han Dynasty, you will know what i mean. but after a long cilvilized and closed time, people get too ... well, civilized.

Mao's people war theory frequently misinterpreted as "people sea tactic", but it has more deep things than that. one should not be missed is about how to educate people (or brainwash people as some people prefer). to be a player or a audience, or just a prop. Mao want more chinese players. (maybe he want chinese have a chance to apologize to other people and liberate other people, not vis versa.

)

i don't know his ultimate motive, perhaps he wanted a big name in history to feed his ego, but at least he partially succeeded, a certain percentage of chinese poplution are poisoned by his toughts.

Today ccp is more and more like KMT in the old days, lots of key positions are filled with people having a fancy certificate like harvard or yale PhD, but pre-war politic game is more like a turn-base game rather than a real time game. china moves, then waits for its opponents move, during the whole game, even the decision maker can be changed, not to mention the strategy. maybe when conflict escalating to the final stage, some cunning, charismatic, yet stronghead peasant will take over the game, and how he will play? only god knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I strongly disagree with such a simplistic approach to view Chinese politics. It is no more complex nor simple as any other system. There are a different set of values but the approach is identical. What is in your own best interests?

I've asked the question before and thus far, no Chinese national ever got my point. Could the CCP survive another 1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War when they lost 30,000 troops just to teach Vietnam a lesson. In 30 days, Deng Xia Peng threw away 30,000 lives. Could Hu do this?

There is no Ying or Yang or whatever. Everything is based upon cold blooded calculations. Again, I raise the example of the 1st 1979 Sino-Vietnam War. The target was not Hanoi but Moscow. The 38th and 39th Group Armies stayed north. They did not go south.

Why would anyone send 2nd rate troops against a prepared defence that had over 6 months to prepare? Frankly I was amazed at how well those troops actually did in destroying 3 Vietnamese Provincial Capital but that does not excuse the fact there was no ying or yang to this. China needed to break the Soviet encirclement and proceeded to do so.

As for the Tibet issue, again if you have known the history, it was Deng Xia Peng who forever took the politics off the table with any negotiations with the Dali Lama. The only thing the CCP will negotiate with the man is where he can sleep.

If there is any term I would use with the current CCP rule, it is pragmaticism. I strongly believe that the Chinese people are more than capable of practicing democracy but at this point, they are not willing, mainly because DXP's momentum has not run out of steam just yet.

But by far my main disagreement with this thesis is that the Chinese views this as a ho-hum affair. "We will take this in stride" type mentality. Chinese history has proven this mentality to be false. People died. And people struggled through blood and tears to put China back together again time and time again. That kind of fortitude requires belief. It is not putting on a jacket and taking off the coat at convience.

Inst · 04-26-2008, 21:15 PM

发家 is usually translated as Legalism, which is described as an Ur-Machievellian political philosophy emphasizing draconian law to control the people for the benefit of the state.

ned kelly · 04-26-2008, 22:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luffaman

but i am very happy for you that you found a chinese expert by yourself.

not sure who rogge is? oh dear.....perhaps you better google him, or better yet, try wikipedia for the definitive truth on who/what he represents....

luffaman · 04-26-2008, 22:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ned kelly

not sure who rogge is? oh dear.....perhaps you better google him, or better yet, try wikipedia for the definitive truth on who/what he represents....

i care you much more than that rogge guy.
but, do you mind tell me how old are you? because i really don't want to be mistaken as a pedophile.

**astralis** · 04-26-2008, 22:47 PM

i agree with the colonel here, from a slightly different perspective. about ten to fifteen years back, a bunch of political scientists tried to make the case for an "asian way of international affairs" that differs from the paradigms used by the West, because of the differing culture of the east. they especially viewed lee kuan yew of singapore as the fount of all asian wisdom here.

then came taiwanese democratization, the 1996 missile tests, the east asian financial crisis, the 2001 spy plane incident. every time, predictions based upon this "asian way of international affairs" were proven wrong.

no one is talking about an asian way of international affairs anymore.

Ray · 04-27-2008, 00:20 AM

Luffaman,

You should know who Rogge is.

His organisation owns the Olympic Flame!

Quote:

Commenting on the turmoil that has bedevilled the global relay, International Olympics Committee (IOC) president Jacques Rogge urged the West to stop hectoring China over human rights.

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | International | Scuffles mar torch relay in Japan

ned kelly · 04-27-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralis

i agree with the colonel here, from a slightly different perspective. about ten to fifteen years back, a bunch of political scientists tried to make the case for an "asian way of international affairs" that differs from the paradigms used by the West, because of the differing culture of the east. they especially viewed lee kuan yew of singapore as the fount of all asian wisdom here.

then came taiwanese democratization, the 1996 missile tests, the east asian financial crisis, the 2001 spy plane incident. every time, predictions based upon this "asian way of international affairs" were proven wrong.

no one is talking about an asian way of international affairs anymore.

astralis you speak very perceptively here......the "Eastern" way is really a way of curbing democratic freedoms and silencing dissent amongst countries populations........look at singapore, malaysia, china etc......one is not free to criticise their leaders......

contrast that to the west where you can do all these things without fear of jail, lawsuits etc....

ying · 04-27-2008, 08:09 AM

Seems the Chinese traditional culture and Chinese Communism was mixed up here. I think we’d better draw a line between the two different things before we make the captioned discussion.

A book named Crisis of China and Thinking which was published in 1989 pointed out that in terms of the modernization of Chinese social and political structure, the current China is even far behind the China in the late of 1920s (P407). This point was the mainstream among the elite Chinese scholars before 1989. Like other books which which told the truth to Chinese people, this book was forbidden by CCP after 1989.

Maybe I am too pessimistic. I am very sad to say that the above conclusion made 20 years ago is still correct in current China. No matter what kind of economic success CCP made and what kind of improvement gradually achieved in terms of politics reform, I believe only the democracy reform which is led and pushed by people may lead to the real democracy. Any democracy reform led by dictators or theocrats will definitely fail and lead to new form of dictatorship or theocracy with the disguise of democracy. This is why I am against both CCP and Dalai.

luffaman · 04-27-2008, 11:06 AM

so?
ned kelly owns heather ledge!

i will pick heather over anything except jack gylih???

excuse me, anyone here can tell who played jack twist in bbm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Luffaman,

You should know who Rogge is.

His organisation owns the Olympic Flame!

luffaman · 04-27-2008, 11:09 AM

Astralis,

you have some very interesting information here.
i would add: sometimes western people's action is also a big surprise to chinese.

not to mention the embassy bombing in 98, even this time the tibet or olympic issues dropped most chinese's jaws, they don't understand how france could just face off with china after taking billions of dollars' contracts from ccp seconds ago.

i dare to say chinese's anger on tibet and olympic partial due to this kind of surprise. i am glad mao's culture revolution is over for ever, chinese are getting more and more mature, as long as some media blame chinese protestors, at lease chinese didn't burn down other people's houses.

it may surprise a lot of people here, i don't know out of what purpose (maybe try to gain support from the inside of the enemy?), ccp's propaganda machine keep glorifying west people while attacking their government. under ccp's influence, in most chinese's people eyes,frenchmen are romantic, openminded and ..., germans are hardworking , having preciseness and ..., americans are straightforward, generous, blah, blah..., anyway, all are positive even beatifying words, it sounds to me, ccp's propaganda machine is already partially racist's butt kisser.

not too long time ago, a famous CCTV show host was caught by his wife for having an affair with someone else, his wife took a chance to humiliate him in a conference press, and quote a french diplomat's words to critize chinese value, created a big scene. someone camcorded the lady's tirades, and uploaded to youtube, then ignited some discussion among chinese on the internet. for heaven's sake! she way trying to criticize an love affair by quoting a frenchman's words. lol

04-26-2008, 22:47 PM	#21 (permalink)
astralis *Foreign Service* Moderator Lei Feng Protege Join Date: 08-23-05 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 2,944 Country:	i agree with the colonel here, from a slightly different perspective. about ten to fifteen years back, a bunch of political scientists tried to make the case for an "asian way of international affairs" that differs from the paradigms used by the West, because of the differing culture of the east. they especially viewed lee kuan yew of singapore as the fount of all asian wisdom here. then came taiwanese democratization, the 1996 missile tests, the east asian financial crisis, the 2001 spy plane incident. every time, predictions based upon this "asian way of international affairs" were proven wrong. no one is talking about an asian way of international affairs anymore. __________________ Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present. -Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

04-27-2008, 11:09 AM	#26 (permalink)
luffaman Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: the US of A Posts: 129 Country:	Astralis, you have some very interesting information here. i would add: sometimes western people's action is also a big surprise to chinese. not to mention the embassy bombing in 98, even this time the tibet or olympic issues dropped most chinese's jaws, they don't understand how france could just face off with china after taking billions of dollars' contracts from ccp seconds ago. i dare to say chinese's anger on tibet and olympic partial due to this kind of surprise. i am glad mao's culture revolution is over for ever, chinese are getting more and more mature, as long as some media blame chinese protestors, at lease chinese didn't burn down other people's houses. it may surprise a lot of people here, i don't know out of what purpose (maybe try to gain support from the inside of the enemy?), ccp's propaganda machine keep glorifying west people while attacking their government. under ccp's influence, in most chinese's people eyes,frenchmen are romantic, openminded and ..., germans are hardworking , having preciseness and ..., americans are straightforward, generous, blah, blah..., anyway, all are positive even beatifying words, it sounds to me, ccp's propaganda machine is already partially racist's butt kisser. not too long time ago, a famous CCTV show host was caught by his wife for having an affair with someone else, his wife took a chance to humiliate him in a conference press, and quote a french diplomat's words to critize chinese value, created a big scene. someone camcorded the lady's tirades, and uploaded to youtube, then ignited some discussion among chinese on the internet. for heaven's sake! she way trying to criticize an love affair by quoting a frenchman's words. lol Last edited by luffaman : 04-27-2008 at 12:14 PM.

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04-26-2008, 20:03 PM	#16 (permalink)
luffaman Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: the US of A Posts: 129 Country:	To ned kelly: "i laugh every time i hear anyone explain chinese culture like this." great! so in your opinion, chinese culture also functions as a entertainment tool. i would love to add that to my new version of chinese culture 101, if you don't mind. "I even heard the IOC chief Rogge say " though no sure who is rogge (i prefer names like rosemary or ruth), but i am very happy for you that you found a chinese expert by yourself.

04-26-2008, 21:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
Inst Patron Join Date: 12-17-06 Posts: 197	发家 is usually translated as Legalism, which is described as an Ur-Machievellian political philosophy emphasizing draconian law to control the people for the benefit of the state.

04-27-2008, 08:09 AM	#24 (permalink)
ying Regular Join Date: 04-08-08 Location: China Posts: 129	Seems the Chinese traditional culture and Chinese Communism was mixed up here. I think we’d better draw a line between the two different things before we make the captioned discussion. A book named Crisis of China and Thinking which was published in 1989 pointed out that in terms of the modernization of Chinese social and political structure, the current China is even far behind the China in the late of 1920s (P407). This point was the mainstream among the elite Chinese scholars before 1989. Like other books which which told the truth to Chinese people, this book was forbidden by CCP after 1989. Maybe I am too pessimistic. I am very sad to say that the above conclusion made 20 years ago is still correct in current China. No matter what kind of economic success CCP made and what kind of improvement gradually achieved in terms of politics reform, I believe only the democracy reform which is led and pushed by people may lead to the real democracy. Any democracy reform led by dictators or theocrats will definitely fail and lead to new form of dictatorship or theocracy with the disguise of democracy. This is why I am against both CCP and Dalai.

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