Chinese spies in the West

Ray · 04-25-2008, 21:46 PM

Quote:

Chinese spies in the West

Published: April 18, 2008 at 5:40 PM

By ANDREI CHANG

HONG KONG, April 18 (UPI) -- China's intelligence agency has reinforced its infiltration activities in Europe, North America, Japan and Russia in recent years. An analysis of numerous cases leads to the conclusion that China has shifted its tactics in recruiting citizens of Western countries.

Beijing has abandoned the traditional approach of ideological persuasion, turning instead to the use of blackmail, women and money -- quite similar to the practices employed by the former Soviet Union's KGB and the former East German Intelligence Agency. A series of "massage salon" incidents involving Japanese diplomats in Beijing and Shanghai are typical examples.

At the same time, the targets of recruitment by Chinese intelligence agents are switching from ethnic Chinese to local personnel of mainstream society who work in core government departments.

The core personnel for public political work remain overseas Chinese, however. In recent years, whenever China has had a major dispute with the international community over human rights or some political issue, Chinese nationals stationed in Europe and North America, as well as local ethnic Chinese residents, have organized a large political demonstration. These efforts have been highly visible as the Olympic Torch has made its way around the world, where Tibetan protesters in many locations have been outnumbered by vocal Chinese supporters of the Beijing Olympics.

Behind these demonstrations, the infiltration by Chinese agents is becoming more obvious. In some European countries and the United States, Chinese agents have penetrated to the point that they can interfere with domestic affairs through the recruitment of local agents in their host country.

Take Toronto as an example. Since 1999 Chinese students and visiting scholars in Toronto have launched several major political demonstrations. In 1999, during the Kosovo conflict, Chinese students and scholars twice joined so-called anti-war demonstrations in support of the Serbs. After the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade was mistakenly bombed by a U.S. B-2A stealth bomber, another protest took place in which some Chinese attacked the U.S. Consulate with rocks. Some of the demonstrators were ethnic Chinese who had already obtained Canadian citizenship.

The next major Chinese demonstration took place in 2001 right after Beijing won the bid to host the 2008 Olympic Games -- with considerable political impact. Many Chinese students in Toronto and some Chinese Canadians turned out to celebrate Beijing's victory on the streets of Toronto.

As was widely known, during the fierce fight to host the Olympics that took place that year in Moscow, Beijing's biggest competitor was Toronto. After the Chinese demonstration, mainstream media carried a number of editorials and letters from readers, most of which were very critical of the behavior of the Chinese in flaunting their win in the face of the defeated citizens of Toronto.

The Chinese forces turned out yet again during the recent spate of protests against Tibetan independence, which have paralleled Tibetan demonstrations along the route of the Olympic Torch and elsewhere. These pro-China rallies took place in several major U.S. and Canadian cities, including Toronto.

The Toronto police approved the Chinese application to hold a demonstration, but the report that was sent back to China by the Toronto correspondent of the Global Times -- a Chinese newspaper with official backing -- accused the police of unfair treatment.

During these anti-Tibet demonstrations, Chinese Web sites have been filled with nationalist propaganda and bloggers using profane expressions and smearing the Tibetans and the Western media, which is accused of a pro-Tibet bias. No mainland China media have reported events in Tibet fairly or objectively or called for dialogue between the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government.

Every time the Chinese have been called to the streets for political action, visiting Chinese scholars and representatives from Chinese student associations at Toronto universities have played a leading role in organizing and conducting these events. Such associations exist on many U.S. and Canadian campuses. Most of them were set up after the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown on student demonstrators in Beijing.

Originally these Chinese student organizations opposed the Beijing regime. However, since 1995 they have gradually shifted toward a pro-Beijing position. Diplomats assigned to the Education Section of a Chinese Embassy or Consulate become deeply involved with these associations -- monitoring their activities, sometimes openly funding them, or offering financial support to students judged to be pro-China.

Members of these associations are not always Chinese students, however. Some have already graduated and become U.S. or Canadian citizens. Leaders of such groups often include family members of current and former students. Of course, all of them are originally from China.

There is credible evidence that the large number of community organizations that have emerged in Chinese communities in the United States and Canada are actually receiving financial support from the Chinese embassies and consulates. Diplomats often take advantage of their special connections to introduce members of these community organizations to business opportunities in China. Very often, Chinese diplomats will participate in important political activities by these organizations.

As a consequence, strange things begin to happen. Members of Chinese student associations who were never concerned about military affairs or the Taiwan issue suddenly become very familiar with those issues or with hot military topics. They acquire a habit of raising questions to local experts concerning Taiwan or U.S. military affairs.

During periods of tension across the Taiwan Strait Chinese students, and former students, become particularly inquisitive. Some of them hold doctorate degrees; some have acquired citizenship in the host country. They seek out experts on matters related to the Taiwan issue, especially trying to assess how the United States might interfere in a possible conflict. Some do not hold steady jobs, yet they manage to make several trips back to China every year.

More peculiar things then occur. Reports on Chinese demonstrations in North American cities are filed by reporters for official mainland China media. But when phone calls are made to the media headquarters in Beijing, based on the information on the reporters' name cards, the staff deny any knowledge of their existence. After these "Chinese journalists" return to China from the United States and Canada, it is virtually impossible to locate them through the media they claimed to work for.

Similar incidents occur with regard to officials in the Education Sections of Chinese embassies or consulates in North American cities. These people generally claim that they were assigned to their posts by the State Education Commission or a certain Chinese university. But surprisingly, when the university in question is contacted by telephone, it will say it never heard of such a person.

Then who do these people really work for? The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Canadian Intelligence Service might find the answer of interest.

Readers of this article can test this for themselves by obtaining the name card of a Chinese journalist or diplomat responsible for education, and calling the office of his or her media or institution in Beijing. After numerous such tests, experiences and observations, this author's conclusion is that the number of Chinese spies who work in the United States and Canada is much larger than the number who worked for the former Soviet KGB.

--

(Andrei Chang is editor in chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto.)
Analysis: Chinese spies in Western cities - UPI.com

Though the headlines of this papers states "Chinese Spies", I find it more of a psychological ascendancy and the capability to wage war against the country of domicile is more of an issue, than actual spying per se.

Hence, in the Political Section.

It is a very interesting development and does throw light on the turn of some of the events concerning China and it sudden new found loyalty of avid supporters, be they Mainland expatriates or overseas citizens.

There is no doubt that there is organisational help including funding behind the sudden surges of patriotic and emotional display and that too in such a force!

The author does indicate the modes of organisation being adopted, including false fronts used and they are plausible.

That said, it would be wrong to brush every Overseas Chinese with the same brush. It must be also remembered that the Chinese are more nationalistic than the average world citizen since their Cultural mindset is firmed in by the Concept of Legalism* (I do not have the Chinese script on my Computer and so I cannot copy the Chinese word for it), wherein the State is the "Mother - Father" and the State knows best. This idea is reinforced by the remarks of certain Chinese members on this forum ("Chinese do not like chaos"/ "Chinese like Islam has no affinity to democracy or xxxcracy" and so on and so forth).

Therefore, there is a good possibility that maybe some Overseas Chinese are subconsciously responding to the Legalism (Mother Father) mindset rather than being the puppets on a string of some evil, world dominance scheme of the Red Chinese govt.

Notwithstanding, the threat is very live and one should be aware of the same.

Ray · 04-25-2008, 21:50 PM

Quote:

In Chinese history, Legalism (Chinese: 法家; pinyin: Fǎjiā; Wade-Giles: Fa-chia; literally "School of law") was one of the four main philosophic schools during the Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period (the other three being Confucianism, Daoism and Mohism). This period (from 770 to 221 BC) was an era of great cultural and intellectual ferment in China, and gave rise to many important schools of thought. In China under the political leadership of Li Si, his form of Legalism became a totalitarian ideology in China, Li Si's Legalism one of the earliest known totalitarian ideologies.

Legalism was a pragmatic political philosophy, with maxims like "when the epoch changed, legalism is the act of following all laws", and its essential principle is one of jurisprudence. "Legalism" here can bear the meaning of "political philosophy that upholds the rule of law", and is thus distinguished from the word's Western sense. The school's most famous proponent and contributor Han Fei believed that a ruler should govern his or her subjects by the following trinity:

1. Fa (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; literally "law or principle"): The law code must be clearly written and made public. All people under the ruler were equal before the law. Laws should reward those who obey them and punish accordingly those who dare to break them. Thus it is guaranteed that actions taken are systematically predictable. In addition, the system of law ran the state, not the ruler. If the law is successfully enforced, even a weak ruler will be strong.

2. Shu (Chinese: 術; pinyin: shù; literally "method, tactic or art"): Special tactics and "secrets" are to be employed by the ruler to make sure others don't take over control of the state. Especially important is that no one can fathom the ruler's motivations, and thus no one can know which behaviour might help them getting ahead; except for following the 法 or laws.

3. Shi (Chinese: 勢; pinyin: shì; literally "legitimacy, power or charisma"): It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself or herself, that holds the power. Therefore, analysis of the trends, the context, and the facts are essential for a real ruler.

More at:
Legalism (Chinese philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The Chinese text is available at this link!

luffaman · 04-25-2008, 22:09 PM

ray, you are right again this time.

i agree with you that it is not very likely ccp gov will use their spies as street protestors, that will be too funny. so these oversea chinese must be assigned a job as propaganda warriors.

it looks very scary at the first glance, but i soon find a cure for this situation.
How about persuade developed countries issure more visas to the other average world citizen e.g indian scholars to balance those chinese poisoned by commie, liberal and their own traditional culture.

hx37 · 04-25-2008, 22:24 PM

Quote:

Notwithstanding, the threat is very live and one should be aware of the same.

Can you further define the exact nature of this threat? Is it ideological encroachment, or real infiltrations of government posts, or technology theft, etc. As of now, I really see nothing out of character for these overseas Chinese. Many of the points that article made were essentially meaningless. Is it illegal for Chinese consulates/embassies to financially support overseas Chinese? The sudden concern over military and political issues could be due to a backlash against perceived prejudice like this whole Olympics fiasco. As for the reporters and educators, please indicate their importance/novelty in the overall scheme of things. Aren't spies present in every major power's embassy - CIA for the US, SSS for Russia, etc?

As for Legalism, I really don't think it applies very much to modern Chinese culture. The Cultural Revolution did a lot of damage to traditional Chinese culture back in the day, and I can't think of any report/text that suggest Legalism is more active today than say, Confucianism or Taoism.

Ray · 04-25-2008, 22:26 PM

Luffman,

I am trying to state that it is alarming, but all these protests must be read in the context of Legalism and not as some solely orchestrated move by the Red Chinese govt.

It is indeed worrisome for many as to how such huge protests can be organised so quickly and with such efficiency!

Check the Olympic Torch protests. Check the size and the organisation.

It does cause concern to the western mind!!

Ray · 04-25-2008, 22:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hx37

Can you further define the exact nature of this threat? Is it ideological encroachment, or real infiltrations of government posts, or technology theft, etc. As of now, I really see nothing out of character for these overseas Chinese. Many of the points that article made were essentially meaningless. Is it illegal for Chinese consulates/embassies to financially support overseas Chinese? The sudden concern over military and political issues could be due to a backlash against perceived prejudice like this whole Olympics fiasco. As for the reporters and educators, please indicate their importance/novelty in the overall scheme of things. Aren't spies present in every major power's embassy - CIA for the US, SSS for Russia, etc?

As for Legalism, I really don't think it applies very much to modern Chinese culture. The Cultural Revolution did a lot of damage to traditional Chinese culture back in the day, and I can't think of any report/text that suggest Legalism is more active today than say, Confucianism or Taoism.

You have yourself defined some of the threats yourself.

I wonder if it requires elaboration as to the type of threat a ‘fifth column’ poses. That apparently seems to be underlining theme of this article by a Chinese correspondent in Hong Kong, basing his observations on the events around the world, mainly in Canada.

Spies are employed by every country including possibly Burkina Faso, notwithstanding the fact that it is reeling with food shortage!

However, using an expatriate population en masse is indeed worrisome being novel and somewhat singular. Why do you think the Islamic threat is taken so seriously in the US, even though there has been no event after 9/11? The fear is not merely the acts of violence, but also the fact that ostensibly a pacifist population can be centrally aroused to act against the State!! It is this central organisation that can sabotage the State machinery and infrastructure is what is worrisome!

Legalism is very much a part of the Chinese mindset, even if it embarrassing to admit. The manner in which a centralised authority can exercise its control over such a vast population without there being any whiff of divergent views within the population is enough to prove the fact. Or the fact, that the Chinese expatriates and overseas Chinese can rise as one people and protest against the Protest over the Torch is another adequate proof that there is the mindset at work where the State is above the conscience!!

If you observe the thread "India warns cricket cheerleaders", you will find that most Indians find it a stupid thing to warn cheerleaders since it goes against "Indian culture"!! It is indicative of the mindset that the State is not above the Individual!

Now, compare the Chinese response to the Tibet violence or the silly Olympic Torch. The Tibetans maybe not be totally innocent, but has anyone condemned the overuse of force or even attempt to change the Tibetan culture and religion? It indicates the Chinese feel that their Nation is Supreme over the Individual - Legalism!

Adux · 04-25-2008, 22:49 PM

If anybody thinks Indian Scholars are free thinkers and not Commie's. They have to get their head examined.

luffaman · 04-25-2008, 22:53 PM

ray,

you, like some pure han chinese, worried too much.

this is a civil right movement against media distortion and racial discrimination for the good of developed countries, and to fulfill our duty as a citizen.

it is high time for some ruling elite to think about patting the asian pet or token player, giving more bones to them, you know crying babe getting more milk or quirking wheels get more oil.

the worst scenario for oversea chinese is that they will be persecuted, then ccp will happily harvest these intelligent heads without a blink of eyes.

then, ruling elite have to hire more indian scholars util someday india become strong enough to be recognized as a trouble, then there will be indian exclusion act, then the chinese will become sexy again, to replace positions left by indians. who are the winners of this game? ccp gov and indian gov.

ray, developed countries are nice but not stupid. so you should advocate your fellow indians to join these evil chinese to share the bones.

Ray · 04-25-2008, 23:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luffaman

ray,

you, like some pure han chinese, worried too much.

this is a civil right movement against media distortion and racial discrimination for the good of developed countries, and to fulfill our duty as a citizen.

it is high time for some ruling elite to think about patting the asian pet or token player, giving more bones to them, you know crying babe getting more milk or quirking wheels get more oil.

the worst scenario for oversea chinese is that they will be persecuted, then ccp will happily harvest these intelligent heads without a blink of eyes.

then, ruling elite have to hire more indian scholars util someday india become strong enough to be recognized as a trouble, then there will be indian exclusion act, then the chinese will become sexy again, to replace positions left by indians. who are the winners of this game? ccp gov and indian gov.

ray, developed countries are nice but not stupid. so you should advocate your fellow indians to join these evil chinese to share the bones.

I am amused by your statement “pure Han Chinese”.

Are there impure Han Chinese?

I am aware that Huis are there in many countries apart from China, but I am not aware if there are Hans outside China (not talking of overseas Chinese).

Civil disobedience movement? Media distortion? Racial discrimination? Duty as a citizen?

Two points come to mind on your statement above.

1. Where does the loyalty of the Overseas Chinese lie? Are you suggesting Overseas Chinese will defend China over the conscience of the nation of their domicile? Does that not indicate that they are not with the nation of their domicile? I would like to believe that you are wrong. I am aware of many Indian origin US citizens vociferously defending Bush and the War on Iraq when the Indian govt was against the same, and that too, they expressed it openly while in India, going against the popular sentiments!

2. Chinese expatriate protesting against the Protest over the Torch in foreign lands indicates that they are abusing the hospitality of the nation where they are. I think that it is still OK, but then it does go against the highly moralist stand taken by the Chinese about their ancient culture and tradition!

If the ruling elite pat the Asian pet and the Asian pet is ready to be patted, why blame the ruling elite (by which I think you mean the US)? One can’t have one’s cake and eat it too! I find these types of excuses to legitimise one’s own weakness more amusing to say the least!

The CCP is well aware that the Overseas Chinese will not be harassed or persecuted since they live in a democracy and the laws are much superior to the Chinese ones as far as individual rights are concerned.

I fail to understand what has this article to do with India and Indian scholars? It has been written by a CHINESE (the first name appears French and the surname is nowhere near to anything Indian. It is Chinese and India is still not China). The article is Canada centric! And Canada is not India!!

Thank you for your advice that I should advice Indians to join in the share of bones. Legalism still has not visited the Indian mindset. Therefore, it is a non starter; more so, I am not in any position of authority to impose it and our legal system does not allow heavy handed impositions!

Chinese are not evil. The article, written by a Chinese, is suggesting that something sinister is afoot!!

As far as I am concerned, it is for the govts to take note since individuals can only be bystanders and hope for the best!!

I rather leave the bones to you!

I am sure no Chinese or Indian would want them!

luffaman · 04-26-2008, 00:35 AM

Ray,
for your oriental mindset, it is very difficult to understand we americans.
(sorry, i am not a citizen yet, trying to get a greencard first

), we fight shoulder by shoulder for our country when our values and country are under attack. but when we are the number one and no visible coming threat, we are fighting with each other to practice our muscle and try to get a big share for our own family. and keep our country vigorous and powerful.

sometime this fight take forms in individuals somtimes in groups.

there are different type of groups, if dentists feel their interest are threatened, they can form a group to fight, that is more acceptable. but if a certain race or nationality feel their interests are threatened they can fight too. like movie "gangs of new york" discribed, althought it is more controvertial as long as the law allows, and they are willing to face the consequence, i don't see it is a big deal.

on the other hand, you don't see yourself as a member of this country, but just a polite, well mannered guest, or try to compete for the title as model minority, once your population rise, you either a potential traitor or you make US gradually as weak as those looks united but actually weak oriental country.

luffaman · 04-26-2008, 00:57 AM

ray,
I understand you have chinese relatives, but you seem care chinese more than your fellow indian, that is not normal.
I respect you for your wisdom, integrity, but somtimes it seems to me, your passion may damage you judgement. you look like taking my light-heart humor as an insult occasionally.
hopefully my straight forward words will not hurt our internet friendship.
I will always remember you as a few of wab member even reply my post. tears...
(damn, why there is no preset tear icon).

hx37 · 04-26-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Now, compare the Chinese response to the Tibet violence or the silly Olympic Torch. The Tibetans maybe not be totally innocent, but has anyone condemned the overuse of force or even attempt to change the Tibetan culture and religion? It indicates the Chinese feel that their Nation is Supreme over the Individual - Legalism!

Ray, while the Chinese response is rather protective of the CCP and its treatment of the Tibetans, I still do not believe that it is the result of widespread Legalism. From the posts on this board by defenders of the CCP, I have concluded several points why they do not condemn the Tibetan treatment:

1.) They think that the cultural encroachment upon the Tibetans is more than compensated by economic, birth, and employment policies set aside for the Tibetans.
2.) They believe that Tibetan culture contained too many flaws, such as slavery, a theocracy, and other confirmed nasty components that it is not worth saving.
3.) They believe that while a minority of Tibetans are extremely unhappy with the religious/cultural situation, the vast majority of Tibetans are in fact happy. (95% of them going by claimed monk/serf population split.) And that the uproar with the so-called genocide (I don't believe this part, genocide is what's happening in Darfur, Sudan, Rwanda. What's in Tibet is a walk in the park compared to those three places.) is stirred up by Western powers hostile to Chinese ascendancy.

Going by the three points above, I do not believe that Legalism is the root of Chinese complacency over the Tibetan treatment - rather, it's apathy. If similar policies were applied to Han, there would be a huge uproar. However, Tibetans are a minority in China, with very little representation in the public mind - hence, not many people actually care what happens to Tibetans. Most Chinese are focusing upon the materialistic world nowadays, judging success by the amount of money you earn, the brand of your clothing, house size, and your car. To them, cultural decay can be dismissed as insignificant so long as the materialistic needs of the people in question are met. This is not a result of Legalism, but rather a drastic shifting of cultural values that comes from a nation's rapid entry into capitalism. As long as the CCP can give them plausible-sounding reasons why the Tibetans are NOT being oppressed, they're more than happy to continue making money and drinking coffee at Starbuck's. This is not a result of the consideration of the State over the individual, it's a result of general apathy toward cultural decay. As for the overuse of force, it's not widely discussed in Chinese forums (banned), and the recent Lhasa riots have not made the Tibetans look like a pacifistic people being abused - rather, it's the opposite.

xunil · 04-26-2008, 01:40 AM

There is Indian spies in West too. Sadly, They didn't spied for India. It seems that Indians are really good at outsource, not only software and call center, but also spying.

xunil · 04-26-2008, 02:33 AM

About this ANDREI CHANG, He is an ethnic Chinese. He left China in 1980s. Nobody knows where he was born. He is a mysterious person.

Ray · 04-26-2008, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luffaman

Ray,
for your oriental mindset, it is very difficult to understand we americans.
(sorry, i am not a citizen yet, trying to get a greencard first

), we fight shoulder by shoulder for our country when our values and country are under attack. but when we are the number one and no visible coming threat, we are fighting with each other to practice our muscle and try to get a big share for our own family. and keep our country vigorous and powerful.

sometime this fight take forms in individuals somtimes in groups.

there are different type of groups, if dentists feel their interest are threatened, they can form a group to fight, that is more acceptable. but if a certain race or nationality feel their interests are threatened they can fight too. like movie "gangs of new york" discribed, althought it is more controvertial as long as the law allows, and they are willing to face the consequence, i don't see it is a big deal.

on the other hand, you don't see yourself as a member of this country, but just a polite, well mannered guest, or try to compete for the title as model minority, once your population rise, you either a potential traitor or you make US gradually as weak as those looks united but actually weak oriental country.

You are an amusing chap.

Not yet a citizen of the US and you speak of Oriental mindset in a condescending way as if you are steeped in the Occidental mindset.

Your post indicates that you are a wannbe of Chinese descent.

There are enough of genuine Occidentals in the family to know the mindset prevailing. But I daresay, they are of not of the street level to exhibit such false condescension that you display when interacting amongst themselves or with ‘Orientals’.

Do be advised that all, be the Oriental or a Occidental, fight shoulder to shoulder for their country when there is a threat, but I daresay, they do not take up cudgels for another country even if that be of their country of origin and that too, for such a trifling object as the Olympic Flame. Also, be advised that the Olympic Flame is the property of the IOC and not that of the host country and in this particular Olympic Games’ case, China!

Indeed, if within the country e.g. US, a certain race is finds itself threatened, it would be no surprise if the ‘gang up’. Therefore, were the American Chinese threatened by the Pro Tibet protesters? What exactly are you trying to get at?

Be advised, quit the high pedestal that you have adopted and cease from hectoring of national psyches.

We may not be Americans, but we do understand nationalities and their psyche.

On the other hand, I do appreciate your hectoring me on US and its psyche because I am sure it is your devious little mind which is hoping that the US Immigration is monitoring this Forum and they give you a clean bill of health on your fiercely American identity seeking so that you get your elusive Green card.

In fact, I sympathise with your desperate behaviour to be allowed to wave the Star Spangled Banner.

Volunteering for Iraq would have been a better way to show your new found Americanism and cloaking your actual love for your country of origin!!

04-25-2008, 22:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
luffaman Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: the US of A Posts: 129 Country:	ray, you are right again this time. i agree with you that it is not very likely ccp gov will use their spies as street protestors, that will be too funny. so these oversea chinese must be assigned a job as propaganda warriors. it looks very scary at the first glance, but i soon find a cure for this situation. How about persuade developed countries issure more visas to the other average world citizen e.g indian scholars to balance those chinese poisoned by commie, liberal and their own traditional culture. Last edited by luffaman : 04-25-2008 at 22:13 PM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Simple Questions for Chinese Posters	Bigfella	Current Affairs	197	04-21-2008 22:15 PM
Chinese Canadians conflicted on Tibet	Nauticus	Current Affairs	2	04-13-2008 10:54 AM
Let's face it, the Burmese junta makes Saddam look like a girl scout...	-{SpoonmaN}-	South Asian Defense Topics	123	10-16-2007 23:07 PM
Sino-Indian War	rkam98	South Asian Defense Topics	66	05-09-2007 00:16 AM
China’s democratization and reunification	pin_qinghai	International Defense Topics	100	01-06-2007 07:59 AM

04-25-2008, 22:26 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,136 Country:	Luffman, I am trying to state that it is alarming, but all these protests must be read in the context of Legalism and not as some solely orchestrated move by the Red Chinese govt. It is indeed worrisome for many as to how such huge protests can be organised so quickly and with such efficiency! Check the Olympic Torch protests. Check the size and the organisation. It does cause concern to the western mind!!

04-25-2008, 22:49 PM	#7 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	If anybody thinks Indian Scholars are free thinkers and not Commie's. They have to get their head examined.

04-25-2008, 22:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
luffaman Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: the US of A Posts: 129 Country:	ray, you, like some pure han chinese, worried too much. this is a civil right movement against media distortion and racial discrimination for the good of developed countries, and to fulfill our duty as a citizen. it is high time for some ruling elite to think about patting the asian pet or token player, giving more bones to them, you know crying babe getting more milk or quirking wheels get more oil. the worst scenario for oversea chinese is that they will be persecuted, then ccp will happily harvest these intelligent heads without a blink of eyes. then, ruling elite have to hire more indian scholars util someday india become strong enough to be recognized as a trouble, then there will be indian exclusion act, then the chinese will become sexy again, to replace positions left by indians. who are the winners of this game? ccp gov and indian gov. ray, developed countries are nice but not stupid. so you should advocate your fellow indians to join these evil chinese to share the bones.

04-26-2008, 00:35 AM	#10 (permalink)
luffaman Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: the US of A Posts: 129 Country:	Ray, for your oriental mindset, it is very difficult to understand we americans. (sorry, i am not a citizen yet, trying to get a greencard first ), we fight shoulder by shoulder for our country when our values and country are under attack. but when we are the number one and no visible coming threat, we are fighting with each other to practice our muscle and try to get a big share for our own family. and keep our country vigorous and powerful. sometime this fight take forms in individuals somtimes in groups. there are different type of groups, if dentists feel their interest are threatened, they can form a group to fight, that is more acceptable. but if a certain race or nationality feel their interests are threatened they can fight too. like movie "gangs of new york" discribed, althought it is more controvertial as long as the law allows, and they are willing to face the consequence, i don't see it is a big deal. on the other hand, you don't see yourself as a member of this country, but just a polite, well mannered guest, or try to compete for the title as model minority, once your population rise, you either a potential traitor or you make US gradually as weak as those looks united but actually weak oriental country.

04-26-2008, 00:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
luffaman Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: the US of A Posts: 129 Country:	ray, I understand you have chinese relatives, but you seem care chinese more than your fellow indian, that is not normal. I respect you for your wisdom, integrity, but somtimes it seems to me, your passion may damage you judgement. you look like taking my light-heart humor as an insult occasionally. hopefully my straight forward words will not hurt our internet friendship. I will always remember you as a few of wab member even reply my post. tears... (damn, why there is no preset tear icon).

04-26-2008, 01:40 AM	#13 (permalink)
xunil Patron Join Date: 03-27-08 Posts: 244	There is Indian spies in West too. Sadly, They didn't spied for India. It seems that Indians are really good at outsource, not only software and call center, but also spying.

04-26-2008, 02:33 AM	#14 (permalink)
xunil Patron Join Date: 03-27-08 Posts: 244	About this ANDREI CHANG, He is an ethnic Chinese. He left China in 1980s. Nobody knows where he was born. He is a mysterious person.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)