What's Next, Fellow Chinese? - Page 7

Zeng · 04-24-2008, 23:05 PM

Oh, you came back. Welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

Do not use my words to fit your agenda.

I posted that link for you to learn. You have totally missed what is being said in the story. Do your own research. What I said does not refute what Triple C has said. In fact the two posts mesh perfectly.

I am not sure that you have the right to ask me not using your words. If Mods tell me that there is such a rule here, I will follow. If not, sorry, I will continue to use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

You are parsing what we are saying to fit what you want to say.

I don't know why it surprises you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

Respond with facts to the entire points.

I did to the part I can understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

I am still wondering where you went to school and how you passed a civics test. What was this prestigous school?

Keep wondering please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

See how you do on this.

http://http://meritbadge.org/wiki/in..._in_the_Nation

Don't know what you want to show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

You do not understand the causes of the ACW, you do not understand the motivations of the soldiers of the ACW, you do not understand what the politics of the time were. Stop trying to use the ACW to prove your point...which has been lost.

I did not talk about the motivations of the soldiers.

I am sure that when you say that someone lost, he is lost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

A great man once said, When you are in a hole, put the shovel down. Good advice.

I alway take the good advice. Please give more.

UnderSpin · 04-24-2008, 23:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeng

Personally, I don’t agree with many things oversea Chinese did recently. However, as one of them, I can understand why they behave like that.

For the people from a developing country with a totally different life experience, they (including myself) don’t view China and CCP in the way that the outside world looking at them.

I express my view here but have no intention to persuade any of you to accept my view.

I view China and CCP in a dynamic way. If we look at China and CCP in a static snapshoot fashion in their history, then, not many of those snapshots are good. In fact, many of them are still bad even today.

When the outside world looks at China and CCP, they mainly compare these snapshots with the snapshots taken from some developed countries at the same time. Their conclusion is clear. China and CCP are bad bad and very bad.

When Chinese people look at China and CCP, they mainly compare the historical snapshots of China itself. Their conclusion is also clear. China and CCP are improving.

IMHO, both above conclusions have their values and limitations.

I hope that the outside world can realize that Chinese people don’t have the same view as theirs even if they come to western countries because their life experience told them that their lives are improving rapidly in China, economically, socially and politically.

I hope that the Chinese people can realize that the outside world don’t have the same view as theirs because by the modern world standard, China and CCP have lot of problems. The lives of Chinese people are still in very bad condition, economically, socially and politically. Their satisfactions just come from their lives were in much worse condition before, economically, socially and politically.

Olympic game is a great opportunity to increase communication between the two sides.

As for myself, I was experiencing hungry during elemental school years. In high school, we got TV in our home but had never met a living foreigner. In university, we got TOFEL, GRE, and scholarships from oversea universities. This is the life experience of many oversea mainland Chinese except for the very young ones. Life was improving in a shocking speed in just one generation.

For the generation of my parents, most of their life was even more miserable. They suffered from the mistakes and crimes committed by CCP during Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution and many more communist political campaigns

They don’t have a luxury expectation for their lives. If you ask them how their lives are today, some of them will probably tell you that they never expected that they can have such a good lives today when they were young. At least, that was what my parents told me.

Do they really live good lives by the modern world standard? Probably not except for their sons and daughters are still taking care of them because of Chinese culture tradition.

Many people in their generation also compare the life experience of themselves in a historic perspective. Because their lives were even poorer before, they feel even better today.

I am sure that not all Chinese people feel the same way I described above. Some of them were left behind the booming economy. But most of them enjoyed the China’s recent achievement and give CCP some credit for that. Whether CCP deserve the credit or not is open for debate.

Zeng,

Thank you for sharing your personal perspective. It takes courage to discuss the pain in the past.

I am very sympathetic to the sufferings in mainland China, especially during your parent’s generation (Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution, etc). I was totally shocked and disgusted to learn some details. CCP is indeed better now. I can see why Chinese appreciate the progress. Please understand that this is not a trial (judgment) of CCP. Blaming CCP solves no problem.

I am challenging individual Chinese, especially those living in the Western world. You can appreciate the progress during the recent CCP government, but you need to examine the Western world and draw your own conclusion. Don’t you see the irony that you perceived the West as hostile, and you choose to live here? Don’t you feel uncomfortable that the West gives you the opportunity to come here, to openly express how much you love China and hate their media? I challenge you to examine your thought pattern, and use the freedom here to choose what you believe.

I am not ashamed to admit that we were brainwashed in Taiwan before. Twice. My generation were brainwashed by the early authoritarian KMT government, and my parent’s generation were brainwashed by the Japanese government during their 50 years occupation of Taiwan. Perhaps brainwash is too strong a word, but the fact is that so many things I learned in my youth were totally twisted. I had to question everything I learned and everything I believed. But it can be done. We have mostly elite Chinese studying and working in the Western world, I am sure that you can do very well in this journey.

Zeng · 04-24-2008, 23:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shek

But it really wasn't even economic development in the case of the South. They wanted the status quo: Slave labor to maintain their cotton production.

Here, I can not totally agree with you. I consider that cotton production is a kind of economic development. Yes, in the south, They wanted the status quo: Slave labor to maintain their cotton production. I consider that it was for the economic interests of the south. They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.

Zeng · 04-24-2008, 23:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderSpin

Zeng,

Thank you for sharing your personal perspective. It takes courage to discuss the pain in the past.

I am very sympathetic to the sufferings in mainland China, especially during your parent’s generation (Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution, etc). I was totally shocked and disgusted to learn some details. CCP is indeed better now. I can see why Chinese appreciate the progress. Please understand that this is not a trial (judgment) of CCP. Blaming CCP solves no problem.

I am challenging individual Chinese, especially those living in the Western world. You can appreciate the progress during the recent CCP government, but you need to examine the Western world and draw your own conclusion. Don’t you see the irony that you perceived the West as hostile, and you choose to live here? Don’t you feel uncomfortable that the West gives you the opportunity to come here, to openly express how much you love China and hate their media? I challenge you to examine your thought pattern, and use the freedom here to choose what you believe.

I am not ashamed to admit that we were brainwashed in Taiwan before. Twice. My generation were brainwashed by the early authoritarian KMT government, and my parent’s generation were brainwashed by the Japanese government during their 50 years occupation of Taiwan. Perhaps brainwash is too strong a word, but the fact is that so many things I learned in my youth were totally twisted. I had to question everything I learned and everything I believed. But it can be done. We have mostly elite Chinese studying and working in the Western world, I am sure that you can do very well in this journey.

Thanks for your caring for us.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-24-2008, 23:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeng

They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.

For a CCP apologist, you are missing the the point. For soldiers to fight for the South, they have to believe in the South.

And since you yourself admit that you are no military man, let me point out a very obvious flaw in your thinking. Your followers will not believe if your leaders do not believe.

Zeng · 04-24-2008, 23:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

For a CCP apologist, you are missing the the point. For soldiers to fight for the South, they have to believe in the South.

And since you yourself admit that you are no military man, let me point out a very obvious flaw in your thinking. Your followers will not believe if your leaders do not believe.

If you want to label me, it is OK.

I never said their soliders did/or did not believe in their cause.

Your arguement can be correct but has nothing to do with my comments you cited.

OK, I will stop here.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-25-2008, 00:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeng

Your arguement can be correct but has nothing to do with my comments you cited.

Yes it does and big time.

You are trying to say that the southern politicians fought for reasons that they kept hidden from the soldiers. I am telling you that is plain bull crap!

I will counter you with the 1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War. Which was the main objective? To check the Vietnamese expansion or to break the Soviet encirclement?

Both are true. Which one was 1st?

Zeng · 04-25-2008, 00:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Yes it does and big time.

You are trying to say that the southern politicians fought for reasons that they kept hidden from the soldiers. I am telling you that is plain bull crap!

I will counter you with the 1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War. Which was the main objective? To check the Vietnamese expansion or to break the Soviet encirclement?

Both are true. Which one was 1st?

Sir,

From my comment:
They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.

You derived:
You are trying to say that the southern politicians fought for reasons that they kept hidden from the soldiers.

That is interesting.

Personally, I think that break the Soviet encirclement is more important. But I am not military man and I can be wrong.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-25-2008, 00:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeng

They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.

You are not getting it. You are the one emphasizing that they have other interests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeng

You derived:
You are trying to say that the southern politicians fought for reasons that they kept hidden from the soldiers.

That is interesting.

No, that is what you are saying.

Clearly, you have not read the speeches, nor the declarations of war, nor the orders to move on the Union Forces. Instead, you projected your own thoughts into the matter without documented back up.

That, my dear man, is revisionism.

luffaman · 04-25-2008, 00:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderSpin

Don’t you see the irony that you perceived the West as hostile, and you choose to live here? Don’t you feel uncomfortable that the West gives you the opportunity to come here, to openly express how much you love China and hate their media? I challenge you to examine your thought pattern, and use the freedom here to choose what you believe.

i guess that you may be confused here. if chinese choose to live in US and become a citizen then they are americans, they absolutely have the right to convince other americans that being friend with china benefits US, whether they can or can not achieve that goal is a different story.

of course, once US declare war against china, and chinese american still stand for china, they can be called traitors.

just image if jewish american stand up for israel, and you just yell at them "go back to israel", guess what will happen?

i think that the real reason tibet issues irritating most of the oversea chinese is because they see it as racism attack but nothing to do with communism.

you see, even if tomorrow china will not be communist country anymore, the racists can still pick on you guys. they can say "china is antisemitic, they gave up communism just because the founder of communism Karl Marx was a jew."

i will post some evidence once i get time.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-25-2008, 00:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luffaman

of course, once US declare war against china, and chinese american still stand for china, they can be called traitors.

What the hell? Do you see a mass arrest of Iraqi-Americans? In fact, Iraqi-Americans have served and continue to serve with honour in the US Armed Forces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luffaman

just image if jewish american stand up for israel, and you just yell at them "go back to israel", guess what will happen?

Oh, I don't know. How about the cancellation of the PHALCON sale and denying F-22 sales to Israel?

Quote:

Originally Posted by luffaman

think that the real reason tibet issues irritating most of the oversea chinese is because they see it as racism attack but nothing to do with communism.

The Han-Chinese does have a point but it has nothing to do with the West. As I stated, no government on Earth is prepared to recognized the Tibetan Government-In-Exile, not even India, let alone ANYONE preparing to raise an army to liberate Tibet because in the end, that is the ONLY thing that matters. As much as we hate the CCP, we hate people more who are not willing to bleed for their own independence ... and expect us to bleed for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luffaman

you see, even if tomorrow china will not be communist country anymore, the racists can still pick on you guys. they can say "china is antisemitic, they gave up communism just because the founder of communism Karl Marx was a jew."

i will post some evidence once i get time.

I can't wait to hear this since I am a personal example of all this is FALSE!!!!

luffaman · 04-25-2008, 00:29 AM

here is some info from wikipedia:

Vincent Jen Chin[1] (traditional Chinese: 陳果仁; 1955 – June 23, 1982) was a Chinese American beaten to death in June 1982 in the United States, in the Detroit, Michigan enclave of Highland Park by Chrysler plant superintendent Ronald Ebens, with the help of his stepson, Michael Nitz.

The murder generated public outrage over the lenient sentencing the two men originally received in a plea bargain, as many people believed the attack, which included blows to the head from a baseball bat, to be racially motivated. Many of the layoffs in Detroit's auto industry, including Nitz in 1979, had been due to the increasing market share of Japanese automakers.
Ronald Ebens was arrested and taken into custody at the scene of the murder by two off-duty police officers who had witnessed the beating.

Ebens and Nitz were convicted in a county court for manslaughter by Wayne County Circuit Judge Charles Kaufman, after a plea bargain brought the charges down from second-degree murder. They served no jail time, were given three years probation, fined $3,000 and ordered to pay $780 in court costs. In a response letter to protests from American Citizens for Justice, Kaufman said, "These weren't the kind of men you send to jail... You don't make the punishment fit the crime; you make the punishment fit the criminal."

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-25-2008, 00:32 AM

General John Fugh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

luffaman · 04-25-2008, 00:33 AM

Gary Faye Locke (born January 21, 1950) was the Democratic governor of Washington (1997-2005), and the first and to date only Chinese American governor in United States history.

In a surprise move, Locke announced in July 2003 that he would not seek a third term, saying, "Despite my deep love of our state, I want to devote more time to my family." In 2007 he declined a bid for the office of President of the United States and soon after came out in support of Hillary Clinton.

Susan Paynter, a columnist at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, suggested that slurs, insults, and threats that Locke and his family received, especially the large number which came after his rebuttal to George W. Bush's 2003 State of the Union address, played a role in Locke's decision to leave office after two terms. Senator Ken Jacobsen, whom Paynter interviewed for her article, mentioned one e-mail reading "Why don't you and your family get on a boat and go back to China?" as a particularly racist example among hundreds of threatening letters and e-mails received by the governor's office around that time; others threatened to kill his children.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-25-2008, 00:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luffaman

Gary Faye Locke (born January 21, 1950) was the Democratic governor of Washington (1997-2005), and the first and to date only Chinese American governor in United States history.

SURPRISE!!! Americans actually voted for him?

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04-25-2008, 00:29 AM	#102 (permalink)
luffaman Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: the US of A Posts: 147 Country:	here is some info from wikipedia: Vincent Jen Chin[1] (traditional Chinese: 陳果仁; 1955 – June 23, 1982) was a Chinese American beaten to death in June 1982 in the United States, in the Detroit, Michigan enclave of Highland Park by Chrysler plant superintendent Ronald Ebens, with the help of his stepson, Michael Nitz. The murder generated public outrage over the lenient sentencing the two men originally received in a plea bargain, as many people believed the attack, which included blows to the head from a baseball bat, to be racially motivated. Many of the layoffs in Detroit's auto industry, including Nitz in 1979, had been due to the increasing market share of Japanese automakers. Ronald Ebens was arrested and taken into custody at the scene of the murder by two off-duty police officers who had witnessed the beating. Ebens and Nitz were convicted in a county court for manslaughter by Wayne County Circuit Judge Charles Kaufman, after a plea bargain brought the charges down from second-degree murder. They served no jail time, were given three years probation, fined $3,000 and ordered to pay $780 in court costs. In a response letter to protests from American Citizens for Justice, Kaufman said, "These weren't the kind of men you send to jail... You don't make the punishment fit the crime; you make the punishment fit the criminal."

04-25-2008, 00:32 AM	#103 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,067 Country:	General John Fugh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

04-25-2008, 00:33 AM	#104 (permalink)
luffaman Regular Join Date: 03-15-07 Location: the US of A Posts: 147 Country:	Gary Faye Locke (born January 21, 1950) was the Democratic governor of Washington (1997-2005), and the first and to date only Chinese American governor in United States history. In a surprise move, Locke announced in July 2003 that he would not seek a third term, saying, "Despite my deep love of our state, I want to devote more time to my family." In 2007 he declined a bid for the office of President of the United States and soon after came out in support of Hillary Clinton. Susan Paynter, a columnist at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, suggested that slurs, insults, and threats that Locke and his family received, especially the large number which came after his rebuttal to George W. Bush's 2003 State of the Union address, played a role in Locke's decision to leave office after two terms. Senator Ken Jacobsen, whom Paynter interviewed for her article, mentioned one e-mail reading "Why don't you and your family get on a boat and go back to China?" as a particularly racist example among hundreds of threatening letters and e-mails received by the governor's office around that time; others threatened to kill his children.

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