UnderSpin

Ah, I see the issue here. You believe you have a dilemma. You don't think CCP is great, but you are afraid that if CCP goes away it will be chaotic and could be even worse, right?

I have a good news for you: your delemma does not exist. We are not talking about a revolution here. No one wants to overthrow CCP. That would be truely chaotic. We just want change, similar to changes you have seen in years, changes you have given credits to CCP. But the difference is that we want you to drive the changes, not CCP to change whenever and whatever they feel like. And you should take credits for the changes.

In practical terms, this means that censorship should be stopped, citizens should be able to freely discuss ideas, freely organize support for certain causes and press the government to do that. Elections can start from the local level, and gradually move up. That's how Taiwan gradually established its democracy. There was no bloodshed, no revolution, some confusion along the way, but just getting better. At some point in this process, parties will be organized and when a party wins more votes than CCP, CCP should just step down, or come back again if it can win enough votes next time. The most difficult thing is to prepare people to think independently so they are ready to be the master of their own country.

If you stay in fear, nothing will happen. You can't defend CCP and ask for change at the same time. Chinese need to learn to criticize CCP for specific issue and press for change. This is not beating up a party, or humiliating a leader (like in Tiananmen Square incident). CCP claims that they delivered lots of changes, and you want some changes, what's wrong there? There are lots of grievance protests nowadays in China anyway. Go one step further, press for system changes, not just for resolution of your grievance. I hope you get the idea. Does it make sense?

Zeng

Albany Rifles,

I don't remember that "I have accused you Americans of not knowing the Chinese".

It is clear, you never read my posts carefully.

Also, you are too late to ask me to pass the American civics test. I have passed graduate level American civics test in one of top US universities.

It was not soliders who decided to start the war. It was leaders on both sides to decide when to start the war. It was them who decided the fate of the soliders.

For the leaders, industrial revolution and free slave were issues for them to start the war.

Based on UnderSpin's logic, that on the Union side “White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”.

__________________
I am here for exchanging opinions.

UnderSpin

Ok, I can hear your anger. Human spirit is a term often used in the West. But since you don't like it, I'll make peace with you and use the team value system.

It is clear that you question the existence of a value system that does not generate economic benefit. (You believe people do thing mostly for the sake of economic benefit). And Albany Riffles is totally upset with your position, becaue that view was insulting. Can you see perhaps Americans actually have a different value system? Go talk to some more Americans and get their view. There were lots of things in my history books when I grew up under Taiwan's authoritian government I have to re-exam and un-learn.

Zeng

Then, we are talking about almost exactly the same thing here. The change was driven by the ordinary Chinese people including myself.

Why the media start open up more and more? Is CCP suddenly think that they should give us more freedom of speech? No, it is the pressure from the people to force them to make the change. Ordinary Chinese people deserve the credits.

We like the form of a CCP that can be forced to react to people's pressure. We don't want this kind of arrangement to disappear suddenly.

Agreed and so many Chinese people are pushing for it. But we don't want to push too far to get CCP lost power before other alternative emerges.

Fear is a health sense of measuring the risk. We can defend CCP to keep it stay on power while push it for change at the same time at least in the near future.

Agreed that "Chinese need to learn to criticize CCP for specific issue and press for change" and they are doing it now everyday in their ways.

If your "one step further" means "the system change", as a mainland Chinese, my judgement is that it is too early right now.

Zeng

It is totally unclear for me where I questioned the existence of a value system that does not generate economic benefit.

The question itself sounds very strange to me.

I believe people do certain things mostly for the sake of economic benefit, for example, fliping the burgers.

I believe people do certain things mostly not for the sake of economic benefit, for example I support Olympics and do not get any economic benefit. In fact, the flight ticket back China has increased too much for me to like during Olympic season.

Albany Riffles's upset comes from he never read my posts carefully.

Of course, Americans have a different value system same as Chinese. Different people also have their individual value system.

Some Americans consider having 3 wives is the way to go to heaven.
Some Americans help the people they never knew on the other side of the world.
Some Americans generously donated their hard earn money to African kids.
Some Americans come to loot other country's ancient treasure.

ying

Underspin,

Two hypos:

1.if China were under the governance of KMT instead of CCP, do you think the leader of KMT will tolerate the secession of Tibet and Xinjiang? KMT even refused to admit the independence of Mongolia.

I attached the maps of ROC and PRC here, for your reference.



2. If China were a democratic country, do you think China and US will just “shouting to each other” and we needn’t to worry any more about another war between two nations? In addition to US, this hypo may apply to Russia, Japan and India. What CCP tell his people is this world is still a dangerous jungle. In order to provide its people the security and food, China has to fight with (not necessarily means military conflicts here) other nations, mainly US, to get the necessary resources, like oil and strategic lands. As you said, we have many military experts here, maybe they have their own points on the relation of China and US, Russia, Japan and India.

The above is some poplar points in China. I don’t mean I totally agree with them. But I have to say the real reason behind the “emotional protest” made by Chinese can not be simply explained as “losing face”. You may visit some major Chinese boards and find out what our real concern is.

Attached Images

2005220232647601.jpg (18.6 KB, 48 views)

ying

sorry, I didn't realize how big the map is. How can I revise the size of it?

solved.

Ray

Given the show of Chinese ''identity'' and imperialist bent of mine, it does not matter who runs China to deal with its minorities!!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Triple C

It's crap like this that makes all ethnic Chinese look bad.

Some people believe in basic human decency... how shocking!

Open your eyes now. There are some people who are protesting Chinese policies in Tibet because they are anti-Chinese. More are principled opponents trying to fight something that they percieve as unjust and abhorrent to their ethical code. The sooner the Chinese understand this, the better it will be for everyone.

__________________
What benefits the body is called medicine; what benefits the soul, discipline.
-Augustine of Hippo

Albany Rifles

I don't remember that "I have accused you Americans of not knowing the Chinese".

This is from link #56 at 2144 last night...The outside world can never understand the Chinese people's fear for the chaos because they had experienced too much of that in recent history.


Okay, I paraphrased you...I did not directly quote you but I did not claim to. My point is still valid.



It is clear, you never read my posts carefully.

No, I do read them carefully.


Also, you are too late to ask me to pass the American civics test. I have passed graduate level American civics test in one of top US universities.

I would say you need to retake the class because from what you have been stating you would have difficult time passing an 8th grade civics test or for that matter earning the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge for the Boy Scouts of America


It was not soliders who decided to start the war. It was leaders on both sides to decide when to start the war. It was them who decided the fate of the soliders.

For the leaders, industrial revolution and free slave were issues for them to start the war.


The causes of the American Civil War are much more far reaching than those phrases. But when I teach my Civil War course I break the causes into the three S's; Sectionalism, Slavery and States Rights. But this website handles it in a nice thumbnail sketch.


Top Five Causes of the Civil War

Based on UnderSpin's logic, that on the Union side “White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”

That is a great oversimplification. For the first several years of the war, Union soldiers fought Confederate soldiers more to maintain the Union than for any idea of freeing the slaves. Confederates fought to defend their country and establish their own nation. And yes, a bedrock belief was the right to maintain slavery. As the War went on some Union troops did fight for abolitionist reasons, but I would never say a majority of them did...they fought for the Union.

Remember also that 187,000 African Americans also fought for the Union.


I will not argue that some profited from the war. But for the political leaders that was not a reason to go to war. Yes, slavery was a bedrock of the Southern economy. But the "Northern Wage Slave" was easily feeding the mills of the North with all of the labor they needed, especially with the increase in European immigration during the mid century. If anything the war resulted in a labor shortage. And there was no great wave migration northward of freed slaves after the war for employment. There was during the war to gain their freedom but not after. If there was any migration, it was westward.


And yes, as Underspin has said, your statements were insulting.

I'll rephrase my opening statment...you do not understand American history and you do not understand the American people. I know you lived and studied here. Doesn't mean you understand us.

__________________
“When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.” — Oscar Wilde

Bigfella

Outstanding post Underspin. Having taken a brief rest from battling the swarm I am very much enjoying your posts. You are showing just how absurd the 'you don't understand China' arguments of some CCP defenders are.

Keep punching.

__________________
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

UnderSpin

Ying,

I want to thank you for your questions, because they help me to clarify some misunderstandings.

1. True, the old (authoritarian) KMT refused to admit the independence of Mongolia, and I do not expect it to tolerate the secession of Tibet and Xinjiang. I can’t speak for the current KMT. I suspect that it will be more sympathetic to Tibet and Xinjiang because of Taiwan’s situation.

But the interesting thing is that I am not arguing for KMT, or ROC. It is an unfortunate side-effect of having the ROC (Taiwan) flag attached to my WAB identity. Treat it as a hint for people to know my background. I am sure that many people in Taiwan and the government of Taiwan will disagree with me on many things I say here. I am a free spirit. I am not here to score a few points for ROC Taiwan. I want progress of Chinese government, I want modernization of Chinese culture and I want all Chinese to participate in this advancement of our civilization and be proud of our effort. I have a win-win mentality. CCP government wants you to interpret every one outside as hostile, tell CCP you know better.

Specifically on Tibet, I do not advocate its independence. If you read my original post carefully, you’ll discover that I do not support Tibet independence or Taiwan independence. However, I advocate
(1) Diversified opinion of the Tibet issue. It’s scary for all Chinese to see only one “right” answer.
(2) More tolerance of Tibet’s desire to live their lives their way.
(3) Chinese officials having a dialog with Tibetan leaders to handle the issue respectfully.

2. When I grew up under authoritarian KMT government in Taiwan, I heard similar arguments all the time. I gradually realize that these nationalist arguments are mostly propagandas for the current leaders to maintain their control of its people. If China becomes democracy, a decision to go to war is mostly a decision by the Chinese people, and the possibility of war is much reduced for a simple reason: Chinese people do not want to die in wars, and American people do not want to die in wars. If China becomes a democracy, Chinese people and American people will not want their governments to go to war easily. When China is under an authoritarian government, the possibility of a war is much higher for the same simple reason. The current leaders can afford to go to war and sacrifice many Chinese lives for their own power. I don’t know what Chinese people believe the real reason for the Culture Revolution. Isn’t that for internal power struggle? You see the danger for Chinese people?

I am not naïve to believe that there are no international conflicts or national self-interests. But those conflicts need to be resolved by dialogs and other peaceful means. Avoid force whenever possible. I want China to have sufficient resources for its people, but I fully believe that China can achieve that goal honorably and peacefully. I will be very scared if the government teaches you to prepare to fight a war to get the resources China needs. That’s how Japan taught its people before the Second World War. And you see the results. I don't want my fellow Chinese to die.

UnderSpin

Albany Rifles,

Your points are well taken. I did not intend to attribute the Civil War to one reason, but just wanted to look at the racial angle of that event and have a contrast to the Tibet issue.

I can see how my statements could be interpreted differently. My apologies.

Albany Rifles

No apologies needed.

You were trying to simplify an extrememly complex set of reasons and I was just to give more clarity.

And to all, I don't want to appear to be someone who thinks "Someone is saying something wrong on the internet. I must go correct them!"

Sorry of I seem that way.

I am more than happy to conduct a vigorous discussion. And I will admit I have learned a lot more about China in the last 2 weeks so it is all valuable. I just hate when people take the Civil War out of context in order to attempt to prove a point. I spent 3 years of my life studying that conflict and I continue that study to this day. It is to important to me.

And as I have ended many previous threads I will end this the same way...my heartburn is with communism, not the people of China or elsewhere.

zraver

The democratic peace theory holds that truly representative democracies do not fight one another. In fact I can only think of 2 very minor war between democracies since 1900: the continuation war when the UK declared war on Finland and made common cause with the USSR and the 1999 Kargil war with total deaths of just a few thousand. Now in the same period of 1900-present well over 100,000 million have died in wars where at least one side and possibly both were not democracies.

If you want to avoid war with the US, being a representative democracy seems to work. The US never even declared war on Finland in WW2.