1947

dont get me wrong
but i believe indian democracy was hard fought for by indians rather than the commonly perceived that democracy was britain's gift to india (for the brits post war india is like what iraq is to america today - they wanted to get out ASAP)
i understand what u mean when u say that malnutrition, infant mortality must be reduced and literacy rates must increase but can u accuse a govt of being ignorant of its people need if it doesn't have the economic means of achieving the? (indian govt though i believe odes have the the economic means to deliver some of these goods and services )

ned kelly

xunil, thats the beauty of the west, we are happy to tell you and ourselves if something is rotten. in this instance it is china's heavy handed efforts in propagandizesing the olympics and trying to sweep the whole tibet thing under the carpet as if nothing has happened.

as for respecting the west, as we say in australia "no worries".....it doesn't bother us...

face is a laughable concept to most westerners so we dont view voicing our opinions on a subject as too big a deal.

if you choose to get hurt by it ( and a lot of chinese are ) then you really are handing over your will to the "western" media you cry so much about. who controls your emotions? the western media, the CCP or you yourself?

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Illegitimi non carborundum

UnderSpin

You are right on. And that's a cultural issue that has to be addressed. Otherwise, Chinese are not ready for human rights and democracy, IMHO. And addressing cultural issues like "face" does not have to be violent or anti-government, it will also benefit the Chinese society in general. CCP needs to relax its control of media as the first step for the culture issues to be re-examined and discussed.

While Westerners see face as a laughable concept, it is dead serious in the East, literally. Face is honor, and honor might be maintained by Seppuku (Suicide by disembowelment) for Japanese Samurai. When you have a subtle value system like this, you have a sad society and a sad history.

Unconciously, Chinese are living for their ancestors and Westerners are living for their offspring.

Let's hope that this Olympic will help them to see something different.

Tronic

Right, but when we see, Tibetans, or here should I say, Chinese citizens, flock to India en mass bringing with them brutal stories of the CCP, or when Indians see Chinese border gaurds shoot and kill Tibetans trying to escape; it hits Indian sensitivities. Your system, all of a sudden becomes a concern for others.

Another point, you believe that the CCP has carried out some miracle. You fail to note the fact that it is capitalism which is changing the picture, and that China opened up its economy in the 80s, a decade before India. And seeing India`s growth rate, which by no means is far behind China, again goes to show, that the CCP didn`t do all that with a magic wand!

You edited it. Would`ve liked if you just posted again. Anyhow, I have read your post and can understand your point of view. But do all Chinese enjoy this view? Once the Tibetans stop crossing over to escape Tibet will you be able to convince me that all in China are happy with the system.

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Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

Albany Rifles

As for slavery in the US. yes, it is a dark spot on our history. And yes, our Constitution legallay recognizes slavery in 3 separate parts in the original document. But 5% of our population died (600,000 out of 30.5 million) to end slavery and then we amended our Constitution to end slavery in all forms with the 13th Amendment.

Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree our treatment of Native Americans is not something of which we can be particulalry proud....bt again, that is something which is very much in our history. Currently the insistence of the Nations of preserving their unique heritage precludes the US Government from doing much to assist them. Local and state governments can not help them. But if you do a search of the Congressional Records you can find federal legislation under consideration to amend the Bureau of Indian Affairs and to improve the laws which will allow more local interaction.

Democracy is hard and we work at it everyday. But it is worth th eeffort.

And to date approx 41,500 Iraqis have been killed, about 6800 of which were Security Forces. However, the vast number of those dead are nto the result of US Actions.

Oh, and I didn't have to look up the number. I hear it daily on our news as well as in my local paper.

In a free society we get the whole story with no cencorship.

Your defence of the CCP may be understandable but I believe it is misguided. As I have stated before I have spent most of my adult life fighting communism because I believe it to be an abhorent, corrupt and dehumanizing form of government.

That is why I hold my opinions of the CCP. It is the same opinion I hold about ANY communist party anywhere in the world.

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"Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves." TSGT Oddball, Tank Commander

Parihaka

Your friendly library service
News Compilations of Tiananmen Massacre

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In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
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hx37

I agree with most of the points that Underspin has made here, but I seriously don't see any quick methods for most East Asian cultures to let go of face. Most of the values in those societies are BASED on the face that you earn for family and ancestors.

As for the Civil War, while I greatly respect the fact that Congress declared slavery illegal after the war ended, I thought that it was more of a byproduct than a cause of the war. If I remember correctly, the Emancipation Proclamation was issued during the war to undercut the Southern labor force, which consisted primarily of slaves. The causes of the war were to LIMIT slavery in what were considered new territories at the time, not completely abolish it.

Zeng

1947, English is not my native language. Your English writing is a little bit hard for me to understand sometimes.

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I am here for exchanging opinions.

Zeng

Thanks for the help.

UnderSpin

Thanks, Albany Rifles. This is such an ispirational story, I want to make 2 points here.

From the racial point of view, the American Civil War was “White killed White to free Black”. Can you imagine Han Chinese killing Han Chinese to free Tibetan? What’s the force that had compelled the White to do so? Some value system must have been firmly established to guide a decision like that. The desire to pay high cost to do the right thing is human spirit!

Now let’s examine the Civil War from the Black side. Do you think Black wanted to be free? I believe so. But some apparently did not. After the Civil War, some Black did not know what to do as a free person and complained that now they did not have a job. I guess some Black had nicer masters and the working condition was bearable. But what would their children say if these Black go back to their nicer master and volunteer to be slave again? You see the parallel here? The desire to be free is also human spirit!

We hear many Chinese defending the CCP for better living condition. That’s understandable. But don’t let CCP quench your human spirit. For the sake of future generations, find your human spirit.

Zeng

Iraqis told Americans lot of stories about WMDs. We know how true those stories are now.

That Chinese border guard definitely should be punished if he was not doing self-defense. That kind of incident did not happen again. It shows that some discipline was enforced.

A not well disciplined border guard behaved badly just like not well disciplined Americans in Abu Ghraib behaved badly.

However, I will agree that America has a better system to deal with this kind of thing in a relatively transparent way.

You fail to note the fact that it was a CCP leader, Deng Xiaoping that started capitalism revolution in China and it was CCP that implemented a very difficult transition from planned economy to market economy without letting China into chaos. Soviet to Russia transition showed us how hard it could be.

Outside world can say whatever they want to say and shout whatever beautiful slogans they want to shout. They don't bear the risk of China's failure.

If China repeated Russia experience, it will be much worse because we don't have oil to save us out.

The Chinese people will have to bear the consequence.

The outside world can never understand the Chinese people's fear for the chaos because they had experienced too much of that in recent history.

IIRC, in term of per-capital GDP, China did not catch up India until late 1980s after nearly 10 years of reform.

The economic gap between China and India was mainly created in 1990s and new century. Today, Chinese per-capital GDP is more than doubled that of India.

Of course, by late 1980s, China has got some experience (successed and failed) on the market economy while India was just starting.

Don't know what your talking about. You cited 2 UnderSpin's posts. The 2nd one discussed Taiwan issue. I was refering to that discussion.

No, not all Chinese enjoy my view and neither they should. Developing more and more diverse view is a right direction to go.

Never claimed that all in China are happy. At least I am one who are not that happy. I will be happier if China become America or even half of that.

However, I don't paint China and CCP all dark. I see their problems, I see their drawbacks, I see their mistakes, I see their crimes, I see their achievements, I see their improvments and finally I see a darker picture if we suddenly lost such a system.

UnderSpin

Since we have so many military professionals here, I'll ask a question.
Can someone claim that losing face is a major international security issue and ask the military to sponsor a research "how to lose face graciously in East Asian Culture"

Officer of Engineers

Losing face is a hell of a lot easier than a war.

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Chimo

Zeng

“White killed White to free Black” to gain labor for the industrial revolution.

I will agree that some of the whites had noble cause to free black. But the essential reason behind “Free Black” is for labors.

Today, almost a million people from Taiwan working in mainland. I hope that you make some communication with them. How their human spirit was quenched in mainland.

I don't defend CCP's policy on censorship, freedom of speech and many more. I hope that CCP can accelerate the political reform process.

Please tell us in what way, we can find our human spirit?

Do we agree with everything CCP did? No, we don't. I criticize them for what they did/are doing wrong (please read #652).

Tibet protest in a perspective.

Do Chinese people criticize CCP policy in China? Yes, they do.

Of course, I acknowledge that China is still a communist country, it does not give the full freedom of speech. I think that they should relax the limit more and more.

Most Chinese people know a limit today that it is OK to criticize CCP for specific policy but not CCP overall in public. Even the Chinese media, news paper and TV can criticize CCP's specific policy today. Is this good enough ? No, definitely not. Is this a progress? Yes, definitely yes.

Do we ask for more and more open society and political reform? Yes, we do. If you attend any Chinese discussion and even official meetings in China you will find it.

Many models of political reform have been proposed by the experts. Some have already been put into test. The local level officials need to compete for the votes from the local residents to get their positions. The villigers vote their leaders. Is this good enough ? No, definitely not. Is this a progress? Yes, definitely yes.

Do we ask for more and more human rights? Yes, we do. There are already 10s of thousands protests each year in China. How many more do you want?

Should we go to protest everyday? Should we raise the weapon to CCP?

I hate to tell you that sentence like "find your human spirit" is a beautiful empty slogan.

Albany Rifles

“White killed White to free Black” to gain labor for the industrial revolution.

I will agree with some of the whites had noble cause to free black. But the essential reason behind “Free Black” is for labors.

You have accused us Americans of not knowing the Chinese.

You sure as Hell don't know the Americans. And you also show you do not
undersand the motivation of soldiers at war.


The figure I listed was for all of the dead of the Civil War...those who fought for both sides. All of the Union did not die for abolition directly...most died for their mess mates. Some could have cared less about the slaves...some in fact rebelled against it. In fact, here are some names from a unit which I care very much about who were court martialed after the Emancipation Proclamation because of their views on ending slavery.

The following members of the 43rd NYVI were court martialed for insubordination for refusing to serve after the EP was adopted

Anselm Avery
Michael Van Hook
Caleb Justice
1lt Samuel Winters

But how do you account for the thousands of German immigrants who fought for their new country and the right of the slaves? the Forty Eighters were famous for their views.

The vast majority of Civil War soldiers fought for Union or Confederacy and the form of gevernment the believed. Abolition was a by product of their efforts.

The soldiers fought for themselves and each other....they didn't give a damn about any industrial revolution.

I have not told you how to interpret Chinese history. I have only commented about the governance of the CCP. You, however have attempted to school me on American history and how it should be interpreted.

When you can pass an American civics test, then come talk to me. Your distorted view of the sacrifice of the American soldier is an insult to them.