UnderSpin

I wish what you said were true.
Sadly, most Chinese people either did not get the right information, or believe in CCP's propoganda, or just can't break away with their traditional nationalist thinking pattern, they sided with their government. You'll be surprised how strong the sentiment is if you can read news reportis in Chinese.
I'm most disappointed with overseas Chinese's reaction, though.

Zeng

Personally, I don’t agree with many things oversea Chinese did recently. However, as one of them, I can understand why they behave like that.

For the people from a developing country with a totally different life experience, they (including myself) don’t view China and CCP in the way that the outside world looking at them.

I express my view here but have no intention to persuade any of you to accept my view.

I view China and CCP in a dynamic way. If we look at China and CCP in a static snapshoot fashion in their history, then, not many of those snapshots are good. In fact, many of them are still bad even today.

When the outside world looks at China and CCP, they mainly compare these snapshots with the snapshots taken from some developed countries at the same time. Their conclusion is clear. China and CCP are bad bad and very bad.

When Chinese people look at China and CCP, they mainly compare the historical snapshots of China itself. Their conclusion is also clear. China and CCP are improving.

IMHO, both above conclusions have their values and limitations.

I hope that the outside world can realize that Chinese people don’t have the same view as theirs even if they come to western countries because their life experience told them that their lives are improving rapidly in China, economically, socially and politically.

I hope that the Chinese people can realize that the outside world don’t have the same view as theirs because by the modern world standard, China and CCP have lot of problems. The lives of Chinese people are still in very bad condition, economically, socially and politically. Their satisfactions just come from their lives were in much worse condition before, economically, socially and politically.

Olympic game is a great opportunity to increase communication between the two sides.

As for myself, I was experiencing hungry during elemental school years. In high school, we got TV in our home but had never met a living foreigner. In university, we got TOFEL, GRE, and scholarships from oversea universities. This is the life experience of many oversea mainland Chinese except for the very young ones. Life was improving in a shocking speed in just one generation.

For the generation of my parents, most of their life was even more miserable. They suffered from the mistakes and crimes committed by CCP during Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution and many more communist political campaigns

They don’t have a luxury expectation for their lives. If you ask them how their lives are today, some of them will probably tell you that they never expected that they can have such a good lives today when they were young. At least, that was what my parents told me.

Do they really live good lives by the modern world standard? Probably not except for their sons and daughters are still taking care of them because of Chinese culture tradition.

Many people in their generation also compare the life experience of themselves in a historic perspective. Because their lives were even poorer before, they feel even better today.

I am sure that not all Chinese people feel the same way I described above. Some of them were left behind the booming economy. But most of them enjoyed the China’s recent achievement and give CCP some credit for that. Whether CCP deserve the credit or not is open for debate.

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I am here for exchanging opinions.

Tronic

I can agree with your views; and must say, finally a voice of reason! Most other Chinese protestors here have been defending the CCP with one liners such as "Tibet is ours". Atleast you realize that there is a need for change.

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Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

Zeng

As far as I know that their justification for defending China or CCP is that at this monment of the Chinese history, China and CCP made some progress in China economically, socially and politically. Also, there is not an alternative system exist today in China to replace CCP.

We are not defending CCP's dark histories such as great leap forward and culture revolution. We acknowledge that CCP made mistakes and committed crimes.

I don't think that they claim that mainland China's political system is perfect and does not need to change or reform.

I also don't think that they claim that mainland China's political system is better than Taiwan's political system. We are not doing pissing contest here. Please don't confuse the argument.

Many Chinese including myself consider that Taiwan's political change provided a good example for mainland China to study. Taiwan changed from a one party system to a multi-party system. They experienced emotional and turbulent periods. In mainland China, we are even joking that culture revolution was ended in mainland but re-started in Taiwan.

We acknowledge that their system is getting more matured after a decade of practice.

Tronic

Zeng, again, we have different mindsets here. First, I do not think that economical development can ever be a substitute for Human Rights. Stalin and later Mao helped shape those views. And secondly, that there is not an alternative system to the CCP, anyone who has lived in democracy cannot agree with that. If they are so good, then they should have no problem in a democratic system. But ofcourse this ties back into human rights, and the one thing CCP would loose in a democracy is to play god allowing it to disregard the rights of its people within its borders.

Thank you for the info on Taiwan, Zeng. But where on Earth did Taiwan drop into this discussion?

UnderSpin

[quote=Zeng_xinren;486682]
When the outside world looks at China and CCP, they mainly compare these snapshots with the snapshots taken from some developed countries at the same time. Their conclusion is clear. China and CCP are bad bad and very bad.
QUOTE]

There are many good points here and I'll address them separately.

You provided one good reason why the outside world may have a different opinion on CCP. Another reason is China's international policy and behavior, which is less an issue for its people.

Historically, China has been "front and center" in that part of the world, surrounded by tributory states (and protected by the Great Wall). Traditionally, its "foreigh policy" is to demand submission in exchange for protection. This "regional power model" might work fine in the old days, it is considered bullying by modern standard.

Western countries, influenced by Christian teachings that men are created by God according to His image, generally prefer to treating all countries (and all people) with respect, or diplomatically. Use of power is generally the last resort and is considered an uncivilized behavior.

If you put these two models together, you can see why they consider CCP very bad. Especially China has so much economic and military power now, no one wants to see China throw its weight around.

So they believe democracy is a way for China to be more accountable. That may be true. But I also believe that the old concept of foreign relationship has to be changed, starting from how history books are written. Unfortunately, CCP is not open to modernization of thinking.

Indirect Fire

And you're complaining about 100 years of humiliation? Compare that to 250+ years of colonization for we Indians.

And now, this is the perfect opportunity to call out our highly smart politicians for bending over once more to China and tightening security for the flames. Bravo. You'll really showed the world how flexible India is.

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I have no idea what I'm doing. Honestly!

Zeng

Tronic, again, I don't want to start anther round of pissing contest.

I am not comparing our system with your system and claim that our system is better. You are more than welcome to believe that your system is better.

In my opinion, we had different systems because we had different history. If British did not colonize India, you probably will not have your today's system. Therefore, we need to look at things in a historic perspective.

I agree that economical development can never be a substitute for Human Rights. But I think that they help each other in sometime or historic period.

I repeat one more time, I consider that child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate are part of the human right.

Do you agree with me on the above statement? Don't you agree that those are part of the human right?

I agree that Indians have more human right than Chinese on political power and voting power.

But Indians have less human right than Chinese on child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate.

In that regards, China is disregarding the rights of its people for politic voting right.

India is disregarding the rights of its people for child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate.

We are both developing countries. Both of us have enough problems to worry about ourselves. Pissing contest between India and China is the contest between two disables.

Please read the second post you cited in #33.

goodamanda

I'm afriad You will continue to disappointment.

UnderSpin

Be cool.
The first paragraph is a message to Chinese. Indians suffers 250+ years of colonization and should be sympathetic to Chinese' humiliation.

Your second paragraph is venting your anger towrad the government of China.

If you want China to change, you'll need Chinese people on your side to change the government. Don't try to beat up your potential ally. You'll go nowhere with that approach, IMHO.

Ray

The enthusiasm of the Chinese people towards the CCP for the improvement to life brought in after the abandoning Communism is understandable.

There is no doubt that there will be great euphoria if one graduates from a bicycle existence to a car existence.

It is possibly the same feeling one gets when one finds financial independence and the thrill that one has a chance to build his own life without parental dependence, when one gets the first salary of his life.

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

It must be understood that it in no way affects the other peoples of the world if the Chinese are with them or not.

I fail to understand as to why the Chinese feel that by improving their system, it assists the world in anyway.

Or that China is the ''white man's (read the world) burden'' in the Kipling manner of speaking.

If is for the Chinese to decide what they want. It is not that the world wants it to change.

What the world is desirous is that it shares a belief that the spirit of man must be allowed to soar and not be suppressed; since suppression will only help sour the mood of the people/ group of people and hence sour the world and bring in strife. This is what would destabilise the world environment.

The future generations of Chinese will parrot the same complaint of 250 years of humiliation.

Self pity is said to be the basest of emotions.

And anyway, what humiliation has the Chinese faced? I find that they have been conquering neighbouring countries and adding to the kitty. The humiliation should be that of those who were conquered, like the Tibetans, Uighurs, Mongols and the 56 or 65 minorities that are trotted out as statistics all the time.

Zeng

I agree with most of your comments.

But some of them, like the Christian teachings are not very convincing to me. I agree that they are definitely great teachings but not necessarily always true.

I think that you can tell me the exact number how many Americans died in Iraq so far, but can you tell me the exact number how many Iraqis died in Iraq so far since the war started?

Did the Christian people treat the life of an American equal to the life an Iraqi?

I traveled extensively in America and visited many Indian reserves. Can you image what kind of lives they are living even today in the richest country on the planet? I hiked part of the “Trail of Tears”. It is hard for me to believe that god treated everyone equal.

Trail of Tears - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Germany was/is Christian country and that did not prevent them from holocaust of Jews.

America was/is Christian country and that did not prevent them from enslaving the blacks.

I agree the democracy is a better system and there is no need to argue about it. But I don't think that it necessarily came out of Christian history.

Democracy is a progressive process. America first had white man’s democracy, then, white people’s democracy and very late to everyone's democracy.

To liberate the slaves, Americans had its tough time. To achieve the civil right, Americans had long struggle.

Similar to that, it will be a long bump road for China to achieve democracy.

Zeng

Well said, Sir.

Ray

I am no US fan, but sometimes when I see the US getting the wrong end of the stick and find the US citizens supine and without spark to contest it.

I step in since I would like to have the reality for all to judge.

Whenever the issue of slavery is raised, it is fashionable to allude to the US and the days of Black slaves.

Conveniently it is forgotten that the US made a big issue of getting rid of this reprehensible mode of repression of one people by another for the economic needs of those who kept slaves and the country nearly split in two.
One wonders if any country had a civil war to fight the evils of slavery.
Therefore, while it is true the US had slaves, but their emancipated outlook and their will to fight the evil requires praise too!!

Slavery is not a mode invented by the Americans and so it is amusing that it is used as a whipping boy and out of context whenever it is desired.
Slavery is an ancient form of enslavement that is even practised today. For instance, even State control of human resources is but a form of slavery.
Serfs have been in all civilizations and serfs are but slaves.

War waging nations realized that slavery was economically beneficial than massacring and hence slavery took root.

Yes, in Christianity God is the Image of Man. It is like a wake up call. It has to be read with intelligence and not merely based on the words.

All scriptures in all religion are allegorical.

Life is treated as equal for all, until it is your own life; as in Tibet!!

It is good that you visited Indian reserves in the US. If one wants to see the anomalies, there is enough in every single country. God did not make man equal. If He did, out brains would be the same and Communism which failed to prove it so, even though it was its dogma is a living example. Do you and Hu have the same privileges and pay and perks? Obviously not.

China does not have to have a democracy as per the US norms. Nobody is baying for the same.

It is only asking allow people to be free so that there is no turmoil.

Not because it is some mantra, It is because turmoil may affect their happiness and peace!