Officer of Engineers

Smaller country with the US pushing for and paying for a hell of a lot of reforms.

The problem calling for democracy in China is that there is no lightning rod to the democracy supporters to rally around. The last time it was tried, it was done by idiotic dumb kids too full of p!ss and vinegar going up against the iron will of Deng Xia Peng. Of course they were going to lose. Youth and enthusiasm ain't no match for experience and treachery.

You will someone with the likes of Sun Yet-Sen who was smart enough to see what China needed but not determined enough to stop the rise of Facism. China never had a chance for democracy. It went from Empire to facist to war/civil war to communist to now capitalist.

But times are changing. We're seeing the last of DXP's legacy momentum. The CCP is running out of steam in justifications to rule the country. There are signs that the CCP is listening to the people. After Tienamen, more CCP officials were arrested for corruption than students were for protesting. They're trying to bribe the population just a little bit longer ... but that only work for so long before the population demands change.

... as it did happen in both Taiwan and South Korea. It just takes longer in a country as big as China.

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Chimo

Officer of Engineers

As our old friend used to say

"Be the meanest motherf_ck on the planet. Believe it. Be it."

Ray

I believe that under the kilt, they don't wear underwears.

But I wonder why.

It is not hot out there or is it?

She could wear a QIPAO in India with longer side slits than Suzie Wong so that there is cross ventilation.

And anyway, the QIPAO is a very elegant dress and the Chinese women do look nice in them than the Mao suits, which too were cute.

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

Rat is an interesting chap!!

He made me feel at home with all the political humbug that is the staple of the unemployed and wall writers.

Yes, there is a profession that some Communist goons proudly profess. These chaps are always there to write political graffiti on the walls including announcement to go to the Brigade Parade Ground in Kolkata for some rally or the other to either show support for the Communist govt or damn the Central govt or better still, give the US and capitalist roaders a mouthful!!

ba1025

DEMOCRACY UPHOLDS THE RIGHTS.

in fact 'The Rights of Man" is a French document it isn't by Smith

If the ability to make a profit is the new definition for freedom in America someone stole our revolution and I'm moving to Canada Now the CCP has co-opted much western opposition by opening up to capitalism. They have capitalism what they lack is liberty

Our Country was founded on democratic principles not the right to make a buck or the Wealth of Nations. That was a secondary benefit of the system not the primary one. The issue with taxes and tariffs in 1770 was having no say in them. They had capitalism already just like the Chinese people...i wonder if the same thing is in store for the CCP

Adux

Capitalism makes more connection with Democracy and Rights than anyother system known to man.

Adux

Ray Sir,

I dont think she has the best intentions, is clearly mocking bodering racial prejudice.

Adu

astralis

col yu,

not to detract from your other very good points, but it really wasn't a question of Sun being determined enough to stop the rise of Fascism. he heartily embraced it after he saw parliamentary democracy and his KMT getting run over by yuan shikai.

by the time he re-started the KMT in the second go-around, he was demanding strict party loyalty and a new platform. whereas before he was only somewhat socialist in nature, afterwards he looked on the rise of the communists in russia as a model and changed his party accordingly to a leninist one.

he then used this vehicle to run over the revolutionary kids whom were still chanting for parliamentary democracy. the KMT which chiang kai-shek inherited was nothing like the one in the 1911 Revolution.

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Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Adux

Sir,

I live in the other Communist Shitbucket called kerala, but atleast here they havent got power continously for 30 years. The Incumbant always looses here. So I have to wait for 3 more years to get some respite.

For all the people especially the Left-Liberterians idiots who call communist policies, they should come and live here. They will call George Bush the saviour send my Christ himself.

Though We have a constant group white-lefities joining the Commie ralies here, I just saw dozen near Marine Drive yesterday heading a rally with a lot of Commie leaders.

They hurt, anybody who dont agree with them, my organization the NAME itself is named after a prominant Congress politician. I am one of their favorite targets.

Adu

ba1025

China is one of the most capitalistic society today. They have a much smaller net of regulation than in the states.

ap·i·tal·ism Audio Help /ˈkæpɪtlˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

capitalism only frees you to make money. the Chinese have that freedom

Ray

It takes two to tango!

Adux

Just a part of it.

Bigfella

Capitalism without democracy to moderate it has consistently abused & exploited the 'common man' to make a profit. Ever heard of the slave trade? How about the conditions of the early industrial revolution? If that doesn't work, look at the behaviour of some companies in the 3rd world today, from Bhopal to the use of slave labor to produce chocolate.

Absent outside pressure capitalism elevates amorality to the status of governing principle. It prefers a system of government that provides stablilty, relatively predictable legal outcomes and limits the ability of 'common people' to do things like organize unions or pressure government to impose basic standards on employers. The perfect match for capitalism, therefore, turns out to be a sort of mild dictatorship or 'guided democracy'.

Thus, to many capitalists China has considerable advantages over most Western nations as a place to do business. Once it improves the transparency of its legal system it will be even better. The whole 'capitalism = democracy' line that is often pedalled is just as much propaganda as anything that emerges from Beijing.

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Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

rat

Thank you Ray, OoE, Adux and others for your replies.
@Ray:
Good job chief. I read Balbir Punj's article. What I infer from that is that in the author's opinion the elections in WB are not exactly free and fair. This might be correct, but this also points to a fact that implementing democracy and will of people needs that the society should be truly free and mature enough not to bow down to such threats. This subversion of democracy as put forward by Balbir (if he has really presented the reality) can happen in any part of the nation. This also poses a big question mark on the legitimacy of democratic governments in India.

As far as subversion of free will is concerned, Modi has done it in Gujarat (even though he is not communist). This points to the fact that what communists do can be done by other people too. Hence in any from of governance, one seeks the lesser evil.

@Adux:
quote " Capitialism on the other hand as always upheld the rights of the common man. Man is not a community, Man cannot share, Man is an individual, The commie's has to learn that first"

My friend, you are mistaken. Writing blanket statements without basing them on facts is a childish statement. Man has always been a social animal. Look at web 2.0 technologies, for example the Wikipedia. They have become so successful because man has shared its knowledge with the society in general, without looking for monetary gains. If you wanna know more about it listen to Yochai Benkler's talk here. TED | Talks | Yochai Benkler: Open-source economics (video)

A contorted view of communist ideologies or any ideology for that matter, can lead to mess that has been created in indian states u mentioned. Moreover, if communist states are not doing well, neither are other states performing, so your inference that communism has destroyed them is at best childish. The reason for states lagging behind is not the ideology but improper implementation of policies and the lack of any feedback mechanism on their success/unsuccess.

@ray:
"When you go to vote and I have voted just once in my life just to have a feel of Been there, done that, you go in civvies."

I am appalled to hear that u have voted just once in your life. What I gather from other threads is that u are a very senior man. What good is the freedom that u are having in a democracy like india, when u are not actively participating in it? You could have as well been in a communist state like China and never voted in your life... What i want to say here is that this is what is happening with most of us educated indians that we are good at thinking up fictitious policies in a forum but not doing our duty when it comes to implementing and reinforcing the existing structure we have in place. Moreover, all the people who goto the polling booth are in civvies... I know people from Kashmir and Jharkhand who have braved bullets and IEDs just to exercise their right of voting.

@ba1025:
quote:"In the same time frame South Korea which started at the same place has done far far better."
China consists of more than a billion people. What they have achieved is no mean achievement. I agree with OoE's statements.

to everyone:
in my opinion we have many things to learn from communism. None of the ideologies are perfect, be it capitalism or communism. With freedom comes responsibility and duties must be performed to improve the existing system. What works for US might not work for China and what didnt work in USSR might work somewhere else. Fundamentally nothing is absolutely right or absolutely wrong.. its our way of looking at things that make it right or wrong.

Officer of Engineers

The right to vote includes the right not to vote.