qestions for anti-CCPs - Page 4

Ray · 04-23-2008, 01:02 AM

Colonel,

The Chinese did not retreat in the Sino Indian 1962.

NEFA was untenable militarily and so they withdrew with great moral grandstanding.

It was brilliantly political and turn the dagger in the Indian heart than merely pulling it out, having done the job.

But it was good since thereafter India awoke and so did the Army from its Koi Hai , tent pegging, weekend shikar and their chotas in the evening slumber!!

rat · 04-23-2008, 04:07 AM

Hello everyone! Quite an interesting discussion here! Although I beg to differ with one of the comments Ray made.
Quoting Mr Ray: "Communism is a failed doctrine."
In my opinion its not. Any doctrine in its extreme form is bad, be it capitalism or communism.
I would like to draw your attention to the Indian state of West Bengal. The Communist Party of India has been comprehensively winning the free and fair elections in this state for more than 30 years. Had communism been a failed concept, they couldnt have had a string of wins in a democratic election for such a long time. Even the central government in India is solely due to CPI's support.

In my opinion, chinese model is an interesting model of governance and has been quite successful in providing its people both economic growth and social development. Its method might be unacceptable for the world but it has achieved above average success in a short span of 50 years. I also think that their form of governance is evolving with time.

Ray · 04-23-2008, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rat

Hello everyone! Quite an interesting discussion here! Although I beg to differ with one of the comments Ray made.
Quoting Mr Ray: "Communism is a failed doctrine."
In my opinion its not. Any doctrine in its extreme form is bad, be it capitalism or communism.
I would like to draw your attention to the Indian state of West Bengal. The Communist Party of India has been comprehensively winning the free and fair elections in this state for more than 30 years. Had communism been a failed concept, they couldnt have had a string of wins in a democratic election for such a long time. Even the central government in India is solely due to CPI's support.

In my opinion, chinese model is an interesting model of governance and has been quite successful in providing its people both economic growth and social development. Its method might be unacceptable for the world but it has achieved above average success in a short span of 50 years. I also think that their form of governance is evolving with time.

Here is why Commies win in Bengal.

I was myself told if I don't vote for CPI (M) I and my family will be sorted out.

And I am not a common man in my locality!!

Imagine what is the other plight!

Quote:

Patna's long shadow on Kolkata
Realpolitik with Balbir K. Punj

Bhagwan Gautam Buddha (560-480 BC) on receiving enlightenment in Bodhgaya in ancient Magadha (Bihar) realized that the world is ephemeral and full of sorrow; change is the only thing permanent in nature. But Buddhadev Bhattacharjee, the Chief Minister of West Bengal, finds that the change of government in Bihar is not a good sign for the nation. His ideology, Communism, allows for no change in `progressive' regimes. Thus he wanted Lalu/Rabri's inept and corrupt government to continue without any change, election after elections. Bihar, for the last fifteen years, is full of sorrow; and this time proved that change is natural. But not surprisingly CPI (M) was with RJD whose governance ensured that the State was literally withering away. Bhattacharjee feels that the coming of `communal forces' in Bihar is a threat to the entire nation. For all these years Lalu had used the `communal forces' as a red herring for brick and mortar development. Lalu's `secular' Bihar saw the dominance of criminals and history sheeters like Shahabuddin, M.A. Fatmi, and Taslimuddin, involved in running arms racket and instigating communal violence.

However, Buddhadev Bhattacharjee's words should not be taken on their face value but rather place value. What troubles him is not really the exit of Lalu but the Election Commission's ability to conduct free and fair polls in Bihar whose notoriety in this matter is well-known. Legal advisor of the Election Commission Shri K.J. Rao proved the power in sceptre of Indian bureaucracy. Where there is a will, there is an electionfree and fair! And it would be shocking to the CPI (M) if such a free and fair assembly elections were held in West Bengal in 2006. The Left Front government is ruling in West Bengal, without interruption, twice the time span that of RJD in Bihar. But it is no longer a secret that it comes through a process called `scientific rigging'. Bihar became a battle ground during elections with kidnapping, booth capturing, firebombing, killing, etc. But in West Bengal things are managed rather professionally and seamlessly by party cadres of the CPI(M).

Buddhadev Bhattacharjee's words should not be taken on their face value but rather place value. What troubles him is not really the exit of Lalu but the Election Commission's ability to conduct free and fair polls in Bihar whose notoriety in this matter is well-known. Legal advisor of Election Commission K J Rao proved the power in sceptre of Indian bureaucracy.

The report of Shri Afzal Amanullah, the Bihar Cadre IAS officer, sent as special observer in West Bengal in 2004 General Elections is edifying enough. Shri Amanullah found that the West Bengal government employees who generally man the booths are members of the CPI(M)-controlled Coordination Committee of State Government's Employees. They are partisan, even against their personal wish. The cops, who are posted in polling booths to provide security to voters, are also Marxists. They are members of Non-Gazetted Police Karmachari Samiti which was floated by the CPI (M) in 1967 as a rival union of employees in Police. Shri Amanullah submitted a 13 page report in which he recommended that the entire polling in 42 Parliamentary constituencies be countermanded.

The Asansol by-elections held in October last were landslide victory for the CPI(M) with incredibly big margin. Only advantage of rigging can explain such a victory for a party that has already been thirty years in power.

Dipak Ghosh, IAS (retd) and West Bengal MLA from Trinamool Congress recently wrote in an article titled The Asansol Rigging: Whither ECI?"Of the 294 Assembly seats in the State, the CPI (M) and its constituents can easily win without availing rigging techniques in about 100. This is conceded by the Opposition. The remaining 194 are fully under their manipulation machinery. The brazen booth capturing seen during municipal elections held over May and June 2005 show how easily they have moved into newer and newer parts of the State. In 2001 election, the Left Front won 112 seats by outright rigging. This was apparent from the booth-wise results" (The Pioneer, October 9, 2005).

The CPI (M) `scientific rigging' is surely more sophisticated than RJD's. For instance for Panchayat and Zilla Parishad elections held on May 11, 2003, sixty thousand nominations were filed on the last day of filing viz. April 16, 2003. On scrutiny 80 per cent of them were found as `dummy' filed by proxy candidates of the CPI (M) to maintain an `illusion of democracy'. In reality the genuine contenders are scared off from participating in the election. As a result 6,800 Panchayat seats were won uncontested in the State. Most of them are the CPI(M) and its allies while those from Opposition parties could be counted on fingers of one hand. In 1998 Panchayat election the corresponding figure was merely 709.

The CPI (M) `scientific rigging' is surely more sophisticated than RJD's. For instance for Panchayat and Zilla Parishad elections held on May 11, 2003, sixty thousand nominations were filed on the last day of filing viz. April 16, 2003. On scrutiny 80 per cent of them were found as `dummy' filed by proxy candidates of the CPI (M) to maintain an `illusion of democracy'.

It is no coincidence that Panchayat Elections of 2003 witnessed large scale violence107 lives were lost and more than one thousand were injured. One could see a direct reflection of increasing violence on seat/vote share won by the Left Front. The seats of LF which were on declining mode in Panchayat elections 1988 (66.48%), 1993 (57.97%) and 1998 (47.72%) shot up to amazing 67.16% in 2003. Debabrata Bandopadhyay, RSP leader called it `Rigging at Source' (like Tax Deducted at Source). Bandopadhyay, an uneasy CPI (M) ally, had commented that Communist tyranny had to disappear in mighty Soviet Union; it would collapse in West Bengal as well.

It will take more out of the Election Commission of India to conduct free elections in West Bengal than it was in Bihar. ECI will have to break into the subtle stranglehold of `scientific rigging' in West Bengal. It might have to bring polling officers from outside West Bengal. But after Amanullah report and KJ Rao's sterling performance in Bihar, democratic forces have something to hope about. With citadel of fraud demolished by democracy in Patna, tyrants in Kolkata had reasons to fear its shadow catching up with them. This explains for Buddhadev Bhattacharjee's worries.

(The writer, a Rajya Sabha MP and Convener of BJP's Think Tank can be contacted at bpunj@email.com)
Organiser - Content

Ray · 04-23-2008, 04:29 AM

Rat,

Could you tell us about the "Coordinating Commitees" in each organisation of the State including the Bengal govt and quasi govt organisation and their role?

Is there any other non Communist State or a country which has an all powerful Coordinating Committee of workers including janitors to decide policies? If Janitors were so aware why are the not the Heads of the State Machinery?

Are Coordinating Committees essential in the organisation? If so, why are they not there in the organisational tree?

Police is supposed to be non political so that they can control law and order. How is it that a Constable of the Coordinating Committee of the Police equal in acumen and experience as the Commissioner of Police?

Do not try to sell your stupid Communist agenda that has ruined Bengal and brought illiteracy and poverty to the educated Bengalis who were a shining example to India as Gokhale once said, "What Bengal thinks today, India thinks tomorrow"!

Communists are a damn shame to Bengal and Jyoti Basu is a person who has seen his parents wedding!!

Deltacamelately · 04-23-2008, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rat

Hello everyone! Quite an interesting discussion here! Although I beg to differ with one of the comments Ray made.
Quoting Mr Ray: "Communism is a failed doctrine."
In my opinion its not. Any doctrine in its extreme form is bad, be it capitalism or communism.
I would like to draw your attention to the Indian state of West Bengal. The Communist Party of India has been comprehensively winning the free and fair elections in this state for more than 30 years. Had communism been a failed concept, they couldnt have had a string of wins in a democratic election for such a long time. Even the central government in India is solely due to CPI's support.

In my opinion, chinese model is an interesting model of governance and has been quite successful in providing its people both economic growth and social development. Its method might be unacceptable for the world but it has achieved above average success in a short span of 50 years. I also think that their form of governance is evolving with time.

Please be adviced to stop this BS immediately.
If you want to mesmerize the board with your Grand Leftist Ideology you should try find some other board, because within a short span of time you might get mauled here.
Read Nandigram and contrast it with you BSh!t emphasis of 30 years of commie rule in WB.

Deltacamelately · 04-23-2008, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiona Shrot

As far as I could remember, I always thought Sikkim belonged to India, not China.

I also met some guys from Northern India. They kept long hair according to their religion. Did they just from Sikkim? Besides, it is said that even in the army, the their soldiers are allowed to have that hair-style, I mean, something like a big hat on the head?

ROFLMAO

Oh! God. Stop Stop. I can't have it anymore.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-23-2008, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Colonel,

The Chinese did not retreat in the Sino Indian 1962.

NEFA was untenable militarily and so they withdrew with great moral grandstanding.

It was brilliantly political and turn the dagger in the Indian heart than merely pulling it out, having done the job.

But it was good since thereafter India awoke and so did the Army from its Koi Hai , tent pegging, weekend shikar and their chotas in the evening slumber!!

Sir,

The fact that they collapsed their own LOC meant that they had no choice but to retreat. The fact that they turned it into propaganda masterpiece does not negate this military necessity.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-23-2008, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Here is why Commies win in Bengal.

I was myself told if I don't vote for CPI (M) I and my family will be sorted out.

And I am not a common man in my locality!!

Imagine what is the other plight!

Sir,

You're sh!tting me! To you? A military man? I hope you told that used piece of toilet paper where to flush himself down to. Not that you will need any help and I'm sure your regiment would probably clean house but if you need an extra hand ...

Adux · 04-23-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Sir,

You're sh!tting me! To you? A military man? I hope you told that used piece of toilet paper where to flush himself down to. Not that you will need any help and I'm sure your regiment would probably clean house but if you need an extra hand ...

Sir,

I am not suprised, Corruption alligence of the Police and other law enforcements agencies to the Party in power, makes the common man helpless, even the Brigadier. We do we vote who we want, yet threats in Commie Places are often said. The Regiment is helpless when compared to hundreds and thousands of Party workers. Bengal where the Good Brigadier stays is a **** pool of political goons.

ba1025 · 04-23-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rat

Hello everyone! Quite an interesting discussion here! Although I beg to differ with one of the comments Ray made.
Quoting Mr Ray: "Communism is a failed doctrine."
In my opinion its not. Any doctrine in its extreme form is bad, be it capitalism or communism.
I would like to draw your attention to the Indian state of West Bengal. The Communist Party of India has been comprehensively winning the free and fair elections in this state for more than 30 years. Had communism been a failed concept, they couldnt have had a string of wins in a democratic election for such a long time. Even the central government in India is solely due to CPI's support.

In my opinion, chinese model is an interesting model of governance and has been quite successful in providing its people both economic growth and social development. Its method might be unacceptable for the world but it has achieved above average success in a short span of 50 years. I also think that their form of governance is evolving with time.

In the same time frame South Korea which started at the same place has done far far better.

ba1025 · 04-23-2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple C

If the CCP is so necessary and beloved by the people, why is it affraid of disorder? Is it really disorder that it is trying to avert, or its own downfall? If there is a general election in China tommorow the CPP will win. The only reason for not having one is that they are too affraid to even face a competition!

The Russian senario is a scarecrow. There will be no break-away republics because over ninety per cent of the Chinese citizens are Hans. They also inhabit every province that is remotely hospitable to human life. Why would China worry about losing the Gobi desert and Himalyan mountains?

Every dictatorship want to tell its people that it is necessary, that armagaddon will come if it is removed from power--even though it is more often then not the regime responsible for creating the preconditions for that armagaddon. The longer the CPP stay in power, the more spectacular it will be when it goes.

Even if there were break away republics...If it was the people's will what's the issue? They've never had a choice before. They are Chinese by imperial conquest in Tiber and the Uhygar regions. The same as Ukraine was.

Tronic · 04-23-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

They do not wear skirts. They wear a dhoti.

Yesterday, in Orissa it was 45 degrees Centigrade and where I am it was 40.

In such heat and with high humidity, you cannot go about in a Mao suit or a three piece suit either as you cannot go nude in the harsh winters of Northern China.

Clothes were as per the weather conditions in the old days and not as per what would be fashionable and chic!!

Shes in Ireland sir; think she was talking about kilts.

ba1025 · 04-23-2008, 10:15 AM

I don't understand why ruling an area that is ethnically and culturally different like Tibet/ The uhygar regions for hundreds of years makes the claim on them any greater than Portugal's was on it's oldest African colonies it had ruled since the 16th century. i also think the example of Mao controlling the CCP is the perfect example of why the system is bad for China. There is no mechanism for preventing a second mao. All he needs is the Army and the initial confirmation by the party to hold power come hell or high water. There is nothing to prevent mass re-education all over again. The police STILL have the right to send you for re-education at will. I'd be careful posting here. A few wrongly worded phrases might get you a visit from the secret police when you return home...what's to prevent it? What's to prevent them from whisking you off for re-education for three years? Nothing is in place to prevent it. Of course you are saying the party line here even if you aren't a party member. Go ahead post some real negative stuff about the CCP and your name and your families namethen get back to me in 4 years about how good it is for China

Adux · 04-23-2008, 10:19 AM

My haterd for Commie's goes up a notch each day,
Someone is talking as if West Bengal is the pinnacle of excellence in the Union of India. Really? Are they somehow better than rest of India such as say Punjab, Maharastra, Karnataka? Is that what 30 years of ruthless idoitic Commie rule has brought. Commie's have ****ed up the whole of Kerala's business and even the education sector. The Education Minister is one of the biggest idiots around. For commie's party ideology is more important than the happiness and rights of people.

Capitialism on the other hand as always upheld the rights of the common man. Man is not a community, Man cannot share, Man is an individual, The commie's has to learn that first

Ray · 04-23-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Sir,

You're sh!tting me! To you? A military man? I hope you told that used piece of toilet paper where to flush himself down to. Not that you will need any help and I'm sure your regiment would probably clean house but if you need an extra hand ...

When you go to vote and I have voted just once in my life just to have a feel of Been there, done that, you go in civvies.

I was on leave then.

I voted as I wanted and when I came out I told them that if they had a problem, they might as well know that I am from the Army and I could take them on since I am a Black belt!!

04-23-2008, 01:02 AM	#46 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,144 Country:	Colonel, The Chinese did not retreat in the Sino Indian 1962. NEFA was untenable militarily and so they withdrew with great moral grandstanding. It was brilliantly political and turn the dagger in the Indian heart than merely pulling it out, having done the job. But it was good since thereafter India awoke and so did the Army from its Koi Hai , tent pegging, weekend shikar and their chotas in the evening slumber!! __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

04-23-2008, 04:29 AM	#49 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,144 Country:	Rat, Could you tell us about the "Coordinating Commitees" in each organisation of the State including the Bengal govt and quasi govt organisation and their role? Is there any other non Communist State or a country which has an all powerful Coordinating Committee of workers including janitors to decide policies? If Janitors were so aware why are the not the Heads of the State Machinery? Are Coordinating Committees essential in the organisation? If so, why are they not there in the organisational tree? Police is supposed to be non political so that they can control law and order. How is it that a Constable of the Coordinating Committee of the Police equal in acumen and experience as the Commissioner of Police? Do not try to sell your stupid Communist agenda that has ruined Bengal and brought illiteracy and poverty to the educated Bengalis who were a shining example to India as Gokhale once said, "What Bengal thinks today, India thinks tomorrow"! Communists are a damn shame to Bengal and Jyoti Basu is a person who has seen his parents wedding!! Last edited by Ray : 04-23-2008 at 04:42 AM.

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04-23-2008, 04:07 AM	#47 (permalink)
rat Regular Join Date: 04-23-08 Location: Dublin Posts: 89 Country:	Hello everyone! Quite an interesting discussion here! Although I beg to differ with one of the comments Ray made. Quoting Mr Ray: "Communism is a failed doctrine." In my opinion its not. Any doctrine in its extreme form is bad, be it capitalism or communism. I would like to draw your attention to the Indian state of West Bengal. The Communist Party of India has been comprehensively winning the free and fair elections in this state for more than 30 years. Had communism been a failed concept, they couldnt have had a string of wins in a democratic election for such a long time. Even the central government in India is solely due to CPI's support. In my opinion, chinese model is an interesting model of governance and has been quite successful in providing its people both economic growth and social development. Its method might be unacceptable for the world but it has achieved above average success in a short span of 50 years. I also think that their form of governance is evolving with time.

04-23-2008, 10:15 AM	#58 (permalink)
ba1025 Banished Join Date: 04-04-08 Posts: 287 Country:	I don't understand why ruling an area that is ethnically and culturally different like Tibet/ The uhygar regions for hundreds of years makes the claim on them any greater than Portugal's was on it's oldest African colonies it had ruled since the 16th century. i also think the example of Mao controlling the CCP is the perfect example of why the system is bad for China. There is no mechanism for preventing a second mao. All he needs is the Army and the initial confirmation by the party to hold power come hell or high water. There is nothing to prevent mass re-education all over again. The police STILL have the right to send you for re-education at will. I'd be careful posting here. A few wrongly worded phrases might get you a visit from the secret police when you return home...what's to prevent it? What's to prevent them from whisking you off for re-education for three years? Nothing is in place to prevent it. Of course you are saying the party line here even if you aren't a party member. Go ahead post some real negative stuff about the CCP and your name and your families namethen get back to me in 4 years about how good it is for China

04-23-2008, 10:19 AM	#59 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	My haterd for Commie's goes up a notch each day, Someone is talking as if West Bengal is the pinnacle of excellence in the Union of India. Really? Are they somehow better than rest of India such as say Punjab, Maharastra, Karnataka? Is that what 30 years of ruthless idoitic Commie rule has brought. Commie's have ****ed up the whole of Kerala's business and even the education sector. The Education Minister is one of the biggest idiots around. For commie's party ideology is more important than the happiness and rights of people. Capitialism on the other hand as always upheld the rights of the common man. Man is not a community, Man cannot share, Man is an individual, The commie's has to learn that first

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