bolo121

The main problem people have with the CCP is their insistence that economic development can act as a reasonable substitute for freedom.
Allow multiparty democracy, allow freedom of speech and religion and most importantly allow people the right to choose.
First thing to do as sign of good faith is to tear down the great (fire)wall of china.

pravin

Bigger problem introduce democracy it will break up like the USSR

pravin

Click this and you can read the article
clearharmony.net/articles/200707/40367.html - 17k

IF You Want Images see these
[IMG]falunhr.org/newsletter/images/WeiFengju.jpg[/IMG]
IF you want much more proof click the link here
Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group

Torturing PoW is onething
Invading another country and torturing is one thing but...
Slaughtering your very own people is......Horrifying beyond words
AND U TELL RAY SIR TO BELIEVE IN HIS OWN PEOPLE

pravin

more images
[IMG]falunhr.org/newsletter/images/WeiFengju.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]falunhr.org/newsletter/images/2005-2-24-xsp13.jpg
[/clearwisdom.net/.../2007-6-2-beijing-05.jpgIMG]

pravin

ned kelly

I concur Bolo...To me the population of China seems to be accepting of this, as long as economic growth continues. When the world economy stalls ( and it does eventually ) how will the CCP keep the population pacified?

__________________
Illegitimi non carborundum

citanon

Sir, there is a misconception about what the GPCR was. At its core, it was Mao's effort to dismantle and suppress the CCP establishment, and he was largely successful at it until his death.

The battle within the CCP over whether to open up China extends to before the GPCR and before Mao began his great purges. Some of the early reforms that Deng undertook in the 80's were in fact proposed in the 1950s. Mao, at the time, was probably in the minority, and he initiated the first of his movements precisely to change the game in the intra-party power struggle.

In a sense, Deng's initial steps were the resurrection of policies Mao managed to stem through engineering mass movements, but I'm sure the original CCP never imagined that the reforms would progress to today's extent.

(I'd love to go cite sources on this, but unfortunately I no longer remember exactly where I found them. I do remember these were credible sources.)

Yes, there still was a CCP during the GPCR, but it was Mao's cronies. Most of the original CCP guys were experiencing the hospitality of the Lao-Gai system and re-education by Mao's Red Guards, who were, mostly, high school kids liberated from teacher and parent supervision by the Great Leader.

Bigfella

Oh, first up a big thanks to OOE for stealing all my good points. Serves me right for not getting in earlier.


[quote]It sounds like your common sense is greater than your understanding of history.

One of the great tragedies of dictatorship is the way it creates such mishappen picture of the nation. Ruling parties want everyone to wrap themselves in the flag and yell 'we are the best' when it suits them, yet put great effort into convincing people that they are incapable of self-government.

I don't think China ever needed the CCP, and it doesn't need it now. Transitions from one form of government to another always contain dangers. Revolution is usually the worst idea, as proven by the CCP itself.

I would suggest the CCP publish a 10 year plan to take China from dictatorship to democracy. Some steps are already being taken - more open local elections and a more transparent legal system. I would immediately stop all government censorship of news. Free all political prisoners. Allow formation of political parties. Put forward a draft constitution enshrining basic civil & political rights. Move to free & open elections at provincial level within 5 years and on the national stage by 10.

Many comparisons are made with post-communist Russia, and they are all wrong. Russia attempted political & economic reform to address a failing economy & a failed political system. In China the economy is thriving and this gives government credibility. China's government functions quite well, Russia's was already falling apart before Gorbachev acted.


As others have pointed out, it is always easy for governments to get support on issues of nationalism. In fact, the CCP is relying on this to retain support. What a free press & the ability to vote for other parties will hopefully expose is just this - patriotism can be used for political purposes. Political parties that do it are usually trying to distract people from something they are doing wrong (or they just have no worthwhile ideas).

In a free China people might also ask why their government is supporting a collection of the most evil regimes in the world - North Korea, Myanmar, Sudan & Zimbabwe especially.

Again, a fascinating take on history. As best I can tell the CCP has only made two 'great achievements':

1) It holds the record as the most deadly political organization in human history. The exact figures are hard to determine, but when you add up the pre-revolution purges, early post-revolution purges, Korean War, Tibet, the Great Leap Forward/Famine of 'hungry ghosts' and GPCR & subsequent killings the figure for premature deaths is in the tens of millions. It could easily be as high as 70 million, no one really knows.

2) In the past 30 years the CCP has finally begun to meet the minimum standards for a civilized society by allowing (and occasionally even assisting) a good proportion its people live like human beings rather than animals or state property.

Much is made by defenders of the CCP of the achievements of the past 30 years. Deng's 'capitalist road' was not some brilliant CCP idea, it was the only way to keep the nation functional after 30 years of the worst mismanagement imaginable. As far as I am concerned this is just a tiny repayment of the debt owed to the Chinese people for what it has done to them over the preceding generations.

How much sooner could this prosperity have been achieved if the CCP had not:
*put such huge resources into killing, imprisoning & spying on its own people?
*killed off, imprisoned or driven away some of the best & brightest Chinese?
*spent vast amounts of money on supporting some of the most evil dictatorships of this or any era (google
'khmer Rouge' 'North Korea' or 'SLORC' if you want some examples)?
*spent vast amounts of money on wars in Korea & Vietnam?
*spent 30 years imposing economic policies that seem specifically designed to wreck China's economy?

What the CCP offers China now is actually less than the minimum any citizen of any Western nation nation would demand of their government. This is not a necessity, it is a choice.

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Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

ba1025

1. I believe ending all press censorship and web censorship would be a first step. Eliminating the political secret police another. Religous freedo would be a good change. After the chinese people got the benefits of a free 4th estate and no longer fear arrest for voicing anti CCP opinions they would be in a position to elect leaders both locally and nationally. One of the huge problems with the CCP now is corruption. As you know many local villages are not sharing in the wealth being created because the local government is so corrupt. This is a problem that goes right up the line in the CCP. It is no coincidence the Leaders are wealthy. I think the polity of China should look like a polity of China chosen by a people who are free and receive news and information in an uncensored fashion. No more banning reporters from places. I don't understand how this could not be feasible when it occurs in so much of the rest of the world including countries with a culture similar to Chinas

2. The Chinese don't know what their regime is doing due to extreme censorship. No one knows what happened in Tibet no free press was present only the Chinese propaganda machine. Do you think Americans less nationalistic than Chinese? When the press has discovered actions of our government the people had strong objection too things changed. Look at our anti war demonstrations of the 60s and the resignation of Nixon over Watergate, the trial of Oliver north, the impeachment trial of Bill Clinton.
3. Every person jailed or persecuted for disagreeing with the government. The numbers are in the millions. it still takes place. The CCP has the largest secret police in the world. I think the road to capitalism was a huge success for the CCP it took much pressure off it from the outside. Once western nations businesses and people began to make a profit and get cheap goods from China they started to care less about the oppression it's people lived under. If the USSR had done the same there would still be an iron curtain. Of course the CCP capitalism is capitalism without a conscience as evidenced by the shipment of arms to Zimbabwe that cant find a port in Africa that will elt them dock, the lead in toys, the poisonous heparin, the plastic compounds in proteins, the anti freeze in cough syrup etc etc etc. if it can boost profits it is acceptable.

I do think the people of the coast enjoy a higher standard of living but the CCP led China has lagged far behind it's neighbors who were in similar circumstances in 1946. It also isn't true for rural peoples whose lands are being stripped of resources and they are not sharing in the wealth creation on the coast. i think the CCP has done a bad job for the Chinese people and a good job of lining their own pockets

Fiona Shrot

Sir. Ive lived in a democratic country, but uve never been to China. In fact, after observation and study, one can find the political environment in China is far from mature enough to apply democracy. I used to also believe it can save China, but now I think this idea was too idealist.

You said,The point about Presidential Democracy is that YOU will have to CHOOSE who you will listen to and follow.

Unfortunately, the decisions of most of my people will be affected more or less. China's Gene Index is about 0.5 taking all income into account, indicating the huge wealth gap.

The Real Average Net Income of a Chinese peasant family, who havent abandoned their farmland and been migrant workers in cities, is just about 100 euro/ yr. And China has much mooooore people working for agriculture.

So suppose there would be an election for our future president, what would likely happen? The rich ones will buy the peasants' vote by money. And it is very easy to buy a lot: the peasants are poor and in the need to pay their bills for daughters' education, their treatments in hospital and so on; thus the rich just need to spend not too much in their eyes and can get huge leverage.

Material makes one's consciousness come. During Russia's privatization process, why did the citizens sell their shares at a very low price to some rich individuals? Because they needed bread at that moment This just leaded to a result the government had never expected- the whole economy got controlled by few rich guys, not its people equally.(I learned this from a Russian teacher, but perhaps not very accurate due to linguistic barriers. Just put it here as an example.)

Nevertheless, when can China has a president democracy? In my view, when the society get much more equal and when every family comes to such a stage: on the curve of marginal utility of its income, the slope is negative or positive but not very sharp. At that time, their votes will not be affected easily and the rich will not have that amount of money to determine the results of the election.


Yep, my classmates maybe run away finally the PLA wont.

For me, the question doesnt make sense. Lets generalize it: whether the parents will allow their children to die in a battlefield. There are two situations: one, as what you said, to teach someone a lesson; another, to protect their home and nation. The former, I even think it is very silly to start the war. For the latter, the best example is that Mao require his son to join the China-Korea and he died in the battlefield, as many other parents did in that war.

I learned something new about Vietnam War and Tienamen Square from you, but I need to check the internet about it more.

Thanks for your discussing. Respects to you, Sir. OOE.

__________________
Cinderella was a Chinese.

Fiona Shrot

I agree with your first paragraph partly.

The second, easier said than done.

The third, what do you exactly mean by "tear down the great (fire)wall"?

Fiona Shrot

sorry, nothing interesting to talk with you- you did neither summarize nor attach a picture successfully.

BTW, did you ever have any touch with Falun Gong members?

bolo121

So what, do it anway.
To quote JFK, we do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard. Democracy and freedom are great things to have but like all great things need a propotional effort to achieve.

Oh come now thats being very disingenious. It refers to China's massive internet censoring and monitoring program.

The internet in China | Alternative reality | Economist.com

Tronic

Actually, it is on the contrary. China makes all the claims on Indian territory. Sikkim was not part of Tibet, its people decided that. And Arunachal is definitely not part of Tibet, not a single political separatist party in that state. As for, '62, Nehru was just an idiot. On the bright side, Indian army is only what it is today because of the '62 war. Now thats something which won't happen again.

__________________
Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

Fiona Shrot

Yup, it needs effort. I also think China should begin it asap.
Actually, I meant more specific ideas were needed about how to do it, what will happen and what will probably be the result.

Ha, in Chinese, the thing is called "Anti-Fire Wall". So I didnt get it at first.
I often browse economist and thanks for the link.