China-Tibet Threads

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by yeung3939

With respect, I would like to point out fan qie is Cantonese word. I personally call tomato fan qie, instead of xi hong shi.

I didn't even know there's another name for it...

[devgupt]

Originally Posted by astralis

devgupt,



and that's what i'm arguing here: that cultural assimilation is NOT necessarily the same as cultural destruction, that what is happening in china today is more a result of economic shift than forcible conversion.

however, ray is arguing here that what is happening in china is cultural destruction, and that furthermore, the han chinese are particularly good at this.

in any case, what you deem the "individual freedom of man" to practice and act out as he likes is- as with almost all things- limited. after all, one of the major goals of the US in the GWOT is to impress upon the islamic world that ideas of tolerance, democracy, and other western enlightenment thinking is better than the ideals of an 18th-century scholar named muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahab, founder of the Wahhabi school of Islam.

certainly good for the world, but a form of cultural assimilation nonetheless. turkey almost went the whole way with westernization; now other countries wish to assimilate on a lesser scale, with modernization. but it happens.

Cultural assimilation means that one culture absorbs another culture in such a way that it itself is transformed after that containing elements of the assimilated culture, and the assimilated culture finds a respectful place in the new culture.there is a give and take relationship.

from whatever i could find on net it is only tibetans who are assimilating han culture and not vice-versa

US is correct in spreading the concept of individual freedom, and unless the zealots in Islam understand this , we all will be never at peace.

But some other nations also need to understand this.

Tibetan freedom movement is unique in the sense that by and large it is a non-violent freedom movement.there are no tibetan suicide bombers. and yet there are tibetans who have self immolated themselves while chanting free tibet.such self control!. if there are tibetans who are so much committed to tibet's freedom then it would have been very easy to turn these people into suicide bombers. and yet it is to the credit of tibetan freedom movement that they havent chosen this path.
I urge you to consider this fact. what do you want them to become-like palestinians,form terrorist organisations. if the tibetan people feel that being non-violent means that nobody hears their voice they might be tempted to try the palestinan way.will that be good for the world?

Nancy Pelosi has rightly said that Tibetan movement tests the conciousness of the world. If the non-violent way is not enough to make the world realise ur grievance, what else is. remember Dalai Lama is not even asking for independence.and the chinese are not even willing to talk to him. what message does it sends to any dissatisfied community in any other part of world-that non-violence is rubbish.take up arms to make the world notice ?

[astralis]

devgupt,

Cultural assimilation means that one culture absorbs another culture in such a way that it itself is transformed after that containing elements of the asimilated culture, and the assimilated culture finds a respectful place in the new culture.there is a give and take relationship.

not necessarily. if you look in the US, many chinese-americans, for instance, take up american cultural norms without giving back chinese cultural norms- they never learned much of the latter to begin with.

on a wider scale, turkey under ataturk, for instance, mandated the shaving of beards, western clothes, etc etc.

or, in the french cases, much of the former culture became "regional accents", quite a few of which begin to disappear over time, again under economic advantage.

from whatever i could find on net it is only tibetans who are assimilating han culture and not vice-versa

demographic issues; think of an ink drop into an ocean. by the way, prior to the latest round of riots, tibetan clothing was actually quite "tres chic" in the richer parts of china.

Tibetan freedom movement is unique in the sense that by and large it is a non-violent freedom movement.there are no tibetan suicide bombers. and yet there are tibetans who have self immolated themselves while chanting free tibet.such self control!. if there are tibetans who are so much committed to tibet's freedom then it it would have been very easy to turn these people into suicide bombers. and yet it is to the credit of tibetan freedom movement that they havent chosen this path.
I urge you to consider to this fact. what do you want them to become-like palastinians,form terrorist organisations. if the tibetan people feel that being non-violent means that nobody hears their voice they might be temted to try the palestinan way.will that be good for the world.

the problem is that non-violence as a philosophy only works when the government can be duly influenced. this is easier done in democracies. regarding HAN CHINESE non-violent protests, for instance, the government will occasionally hear and reach out, because they realize not doing so would lead to a large backlash. many other times they don't hear it at all, not until non-violence spills over into the violent protests we see quite a bit of in china these days.

regarding tibet, where the independence protestors do not have the voice or the votes to influence the central government- and certainly not enough to drown out the rest of the chinese people whom are fervently anti-independence, then such means will get very little. in a more democratic system, perhaps, the protestors might get some more freedom, but certainly never the independence which they dream of: not unless they persuade the rest of the chinese people that letting them go would be a better idea than keeping them in.

but then again, the latest round of protests actually did not focus around independence or even cultural assimilation, they were powered by people whom wanted an equal playing field with the han chinese. IE they wanted the chance to make the money they saw the chinese were making. they're trying to make their way in a larger, wealthier chinese society.

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by Ray

I have no doubt about the deviousnesses of the Chinese Communists!


If you feel otherwise, I sure would love to hear!

Sir, you give too much credit to CCP. Manchu culture has been on a decline for generations. They were, afterall, a very small minority group who happened to have ruled China, using Han system to maintain control. They were free to leave the central plains and go back to the north east any time between 1620 and 1911 and maintain their own culture and customs. They didn't. They stayed to be Hanized. That's not Han's fault. Hans have no obligation to keep another culture alive. Manchu culture is the responsibility of the Manchus.

Much like we have a large number of Irish immigrants in this country, but we are not responsible to their culture alive. Same with Mexicans. They can refuse to learn English. I also have the right not to do business with someone who can't understand me. I have no obligation to keep the Mexican culture alive if something terrible were to happen and wipes out Mexicans everywhere except for those in the US.

[devgupt]

Originally Posted by astralis

devgupt,

not necessarily. if you look in the US, many chinese-americans, for instance, take up american cultural norms without giving back chinese cultural norms- they never learned much of the latter to begin with.

I believed chinese americans arrived in america there were not natives like native indians.But tibetans are native to their land

Originally Posted by astralis

tibetan clothing was actually quite "tres chic" in the richer parts of china.

Dennis the menance was one of my favourite cartoon shows. and in some shows dennis was seen playing wearing a native Indian headgear

Originally Posted by astralis

the problem is that non-violence as a philosophy only works when the government can be duly influenced. this is easier done in democracies. regarding HAN CHINESE non-violent protests, for instance, the government will occasionally hear and reach out, because they realize not doing so would lead to a large backlash. many other times they don't hear it at all, not until non-violence spills over into the violent protests we see quite a bit of in china these days.

I will raise 2 points here

1>Isn't that racism.Chinese government is giving in to demands of han people when they riot but not when tibetans riot

2>So u r implying that non-violence isn't the way to deal with authotorian regimes? I will not dispute your assesment. however straying away from the topic - I would request you to think over a question. The governments of Saudi arabia and some other middle east countries are pro US. However they are also authotorian .Now assume that there is a community that feels discriminated there against the policies of Saudi government. (there is discrimnation against shias in saudi arabia)What will they do.should they take up arms . But in that case the saudis would declare them to be Al-Qaida men and chances are US might even go with this definition.Or these people might take the Gandhian route of non-violence.But as you are urself saying this will not fetch results iunder an authotoriangovernment. so what will these people do?

I repaeat again what Nancy Pelosi said- Tibetan freedom movement is a test for the conciousness of the world.Any succesful resolution of Tibet issue will act as a guide in future dealing of insurgencies

[astralis]

devgupt,

I believed chinese americans arrived in america there were not natives like native indians.But tibetans are native to their land

so, how much give and take do americans today have with native americans? either way, you put an inkspot into an ocean, what happens to the inkspot?

1>Isn't that racism.Chinese government is giving in to demands of han people when they riot but not when tibetans riot

it's called numbers. han chinese have it, tibetans don't.

2>So u r implying that non-violence isn't the way to deal with authotorian regimes? I will not dispute your assesment. however straying away from the topic - I would request you to think over a question. The governments of Saudi arabia and some other middle east countries are pro US. However they are also authotorian .Now assume that there is a community that feels discriminated there against the policies of Saudi government. (there is discrimnation against shias in saudi arabia)What will they do.should they take up arms . But in that case the saudis would declare them to be Al-Qaida men and chances are US might even go with this definition.Or these people might take the Gandhian route of non-violence.But as you are urself saying this will not fetch results iunder an authotoriangovernment. so what will these people do?

I repaeat again what Nancy Pelosi said- Tibetan freedom movement is a test for the conciousness of the world.Any succesful resolution of Tibet issue will act as a guide in future dealing of insurgencies

the way to deal with authoritarian regimes is through development, and that's what the tibetan people protested for. the tibetan freedom movement is a joke, because it seeks to leverage the rest of the world to fight for what the "freedom fighters" will not fight for themselves. and this does not necessarily mean with bullets, but even with words. they desire greater integration and equality with chinese society, and are not trying to persuade the chinese that they would be better off seperate. given that, why should the rest of the world care?

as for nancy pelosi, the less said by her the better. she's a hypocrite on almost every single issue she deals with.

[Zeng]

Apparently, many people here are interested in learning Tibetan language and culture. I am here to do everyone a favor to provide some useful information.

You can come to Lhasa to attend the Tibet University Summer Language Program.

Tibet University Summer Language Program

Columbia University and the University of Virginia are collaborating with Tibet University in the design of curricular materials. You can apply the program in the University of Virginia.

If you want to become a Tibetan language and culture experts, you can enroll into the Tibet University. It is the World's Biggest Cradle of Tibetan Studies and provides PhD program on Tibetan study.

Tibet University World's Biggest Cradle of Tibetan Studies

Tibet University - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.utibet.edu.cn/(S(vd4gsv45...))/Portal.aspx


I am sure that some of you will enroll into the program judging by your enthusiastic interest about Tibetan language and culture.

If you are really interested in the Tibetan language and culture, then, programs in Tibetan Language offered by Institutions around the World:

Programs in Tibetan Language offered by Institutions around the World


In US, you can also enroll as a Fall Term student to study Tibetan language and culture in program of “The University of Virginia at Tibet University”:

The University of Virginia at Tibet University

[Zeng]

Here is an example of how a language is dying out and how some people trying to save it although the future of the language does not look good.

Race against time to save Manchu language

Chinese Village Struggles to Save Dying Language
A Dying Language | New York Times Video


When the imperial aristocrats of the Qing had nearly abandoned the learning of Manchu, then, the end of it is coming.

Manchu language will live as a research language but will probably fade out from people's life soon. IIRC, the Manchu-Chinese, Manchu-English, Manchu-Japanese and Manchu-Korean dictionaries have been made for research Manchu language.

There are a couple of universities in northeast China still have Manchu language program and recruit students.

[Ray]

Equating the US and others as examples for cultural absorption would not be a correct analogy.

The US had no original culture and is but an amalgamation of many cultures.

[Ray]

Zeng

The issue is not learning Tibetan as a specialised subject.

The issue is using Mandarin as the medium of instruction in Tibet over the use of Tibetan as the medium of instruction.

In India, Sanskrit has nearly become a dead language since it has fallen into disuse as regional languages became the medium of instruction and then came Persian or Farsi and the came English. Sanskrit was the main language at one time!

To learn about Tibetan culture in its pristine form and free from any ideological slant, one has to go to Dharmasala, the present seat of the Dalai Lama.

Who would know better about Tibet than the Dalai Lama himself?

[Zeng]

Originally Posted by Ray

Equating the US and others as examples for cultural absorption would not be a correct analogy.

The US had no original culture and is but an amalgamation of many cultures.

Ray sir,

I am not sure if it is politically correct to say that in America.

[Zeng]

Originally Posted by Ray

Zeng

The issue is not learning Tibetan as a specialised subject.

The issue is using Mandarin as the medium of instruction in Tibet over the use of Tibetan as the medium of instruction.

In India, Sanskrit has nearly become a dead language since it has fallen into disuse as regional languages became the medium of instruction and then came Persian or Farsi and the came English. Sanskrit was the main language at one time!

To learn about Tibetan culture in its pristine form and free from any ideological slant, one has to go to Dharmasala, the present seat of the Dalai Lama.

Who would know better about Tibet than the Dalai Lama himself?

First, it is good that you think that there is still a good place to learn Tibetan culture.

Second, please check if Dalai Lama teachs the following information:

Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden, Part 1
YouTube - Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden, Part 1

Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden, Part 2
YouTube - Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden, Part 2

Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden, Part 3
YouTube - Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden, Part 3


He banned a belief that he practiced until 20 years ago. Did that change the Tibetan culture tradition ?

I hope that he teach the contents of the National Geographic too.

YouTube - Free Tibet from Inferno under Theocracy and Feudalism

May be Dalai lama can learn from Bigfella to just call it CCP propaganda or CCP's National Geographic propaganda then gets wet while laughing .

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Zeng

Ray sir,

I am not sure if it is politically correct to say that in America.

How?

What was the culture?

The US is a melting pout of various culture and peoples.

That is what makes it unique and singularly different!

Are you aware that the people of German origin are predominantly more than others? Yet, since the British settlers arrived earlier and because England was a power, it had the maximum influence on fledging country of then!

May be Dalai lama can learn from Bigfella to just call it CCP propaganda or CCP's National Geographic propaganda then gets wet while laughing

I do not have the time to watch the Youtube links since I am on a slow server. Can you give the gist?

[Zeng]

Originally Posted by Ray

Equating the US and others as examples for cultural absorption would not be a correct analogy.

The US had no original culture and is but an amalgamation of many cultures.

Originally Posted by Zeng

Ray sir,

I am not sure if it is politically correct to say that in America.

However, when we visit Native American sites, all the tourist guides are European Americans. You only see Native Americans doing cleaning or selling souvenirs. If you ask Native Americans about the site, he/her suggests you to ask the tourist guide, normally European Americans. It is even hard to see a Native American visitor in their sites.

Here are some great Native American sites we visited. They are just fantastic. But listen to European Americans introducing Native American culture and tradition and the Native Americans on the side are cleaning things or selling souvenirs, I get a kind of strange feeling.

[Zeng]

Chaco Culture National Historical Park, New Mexico