China-Tibet Threads

[Zeng]

We finally found a site that had a Native American guide. But she had very little education and could hardly answer any questions. But she was very kind and told us which rock looks like fish, which rock looks like Indian chief and which rock looks like coyote chasing rabbits. The rocks look spectacular.

[Zeng]

Originally Posted by Ray

How?

What was the culture?

The US is a melting pout of various culture and peoples.

That is what makes it unique and singularly different!

I think that a politically correct answer is the Native American culture. Of course, the melting pot theory is also true.

IIRC, someone once said that other countries were created by history and America was created by philosophy or something like that. I agree with that and that made America unique.

Originally Posted by Ray

Are you aware that the people of German origin are predominantly more than others? Yet, since the British settlers arrived earlier and because England was a power, it had the maximum influence on fledging country of then!

I heard that when voting to choose the national official language, German lost to English by just one vote.

Originally Posted by Ray

I do not have the time to watch the Youtube links since I am on a slow server. Can you give the gist?

Ray sir,

The first 3 documentaries are quite long made by some organization in Swiss may be supported by the Tibetan dissents (believers of Dorje Shugden branch of the Tibetan Buddhism).

In the documentaries the believers of Dorje Shugden branch complain that Dalai Lama suppressed them.

Dorje Shugden branch was a main branch of Tibetan Buddhism before and Dalai Lama himself also practiced it until he became 50s.

For some reason, Dalai Lama started to claim that he realized that Dorje Shugden branch was praying for bad evil not good god or something like that.

In fact, in Tibetan Buddhism, almost all gods are also evils at the same time. They do good things and also do bad things. The worst evil sometimes is the best god.

It may be hard for westerners to understand that, but I think that you can understand that.

I heard the rumors is that some high rank living Buddha of Dorje Shugden branch somehow established connection with China. So, Dalai Lama wanted to punish them. But it is hard for him to openly acknowledge that there are Tibetan branches trying to establish connection with China behind him. So he declared that Dorje Shugden branch prays for evil or something like that.

So he banned the branch. He asked around 5000 monks in his temples to declare against Dorje Shugden belife. Otherwise, they will be expelled from the temples. By the end of the day, out of 5000, around 900 monks did not agree to declare against Dorje Shugden belife and got expelled. Those monks started their own temples. The followers of Dalai Lama attacked those monks even tried to murder some of the leaders of those monks.

Those 3 documentaries also accused Chinese to suppress Tibetans. So, I think that they are not made or supported by CCP.

The last one is a National Geographic documentary. Unfortunately the youtube does not have the full documentary and stopped suddenly in the middle. The material came from the films taken by a Nazi German expedition team in 1930s.

This one is not very long. It presented the Tibetan society (Medieval Europe style society) recorded by those Germans.

An interesting thing is that it even found letters between Hitler and Dalai Lama (13th Dalai Lama I think). One German described that he admired the manly behavior of the Tibetans very much.

[ying]

Originally Posted by astralis

devgupt,

as for nancy pelosi, the less said by her the better. she's a hypocrite on almost every single issue she deals with.

[Mobbme]

*about to pull out his hair -oh wait- im bald*

Blah blah blah blah blah blah....

balh blah blabhalbhlabhlabhal

Wait, oh yeah, balhblahblabhlabhalbha

oh man, the thread is still going on??

blahblabhlabhlabhalbhalbh

[Aniki]

Originally Posted by Ray

Monday, March 19, 2007
The Manchu language fades into history


Interesting article in yesterday's NYT on the Manchu language in China (hat tip: Kate Merkel-Hess). In the village of Sanjiazi, in Heilongjiang near the border with Inner Mongolia, 18 residents, all octogenarians, represent China's last native speakers of Manchu.

With the passing of these villagers, Manchu will also die, experts say. All that will be left will be millions of documents and files — about 60 tons of Manchu-language documents are in the provincial archive in Harbin alone — along with inscriptions on monuments and important buildings in China, unintelligible to all but a handful of specialists.

“I think it is inevitable,” said Zhao Jinchun, an ethnic Manchu born in Sanjiazi who taught at the village primary school for more than two decades before becoming a government official in Qiqihar, a city about 30 miles to the south. “It is just a matter of time. The Manchu language will face the same fate as some other ethnic minority languages in China and be overwhelmed by the Chinese language and culture.”

Perhaps some in China will wonder, "So what? The Manchus became Chinese a long time ago."

It's a common myth and a necessary one because the PRC relies, in part, on the "Chineseness" of the Qing Dynasty to justify its claims to the territorial legacies of the Qing. But research by Mark Elliot, Evelyn Rawski, and Pamela Crossley, among others, has shown that the Manchus were not as completely assimilated as many Chinese textbooks would have one believe. A point noted in another NYT article published on Saturday:

Recent study of the Manchu archives has led to a revision of some widely held views of the Qing period. Chinese historians have long argued that the Manchus were almost immediately sinicized, losing their identity and governing as de-facto Chinese rulers in the long-established Confucian tradition.

But the view that the Manchus were quickly swamped by Chinese culture has been challenged in recent years as research in the archives has revealed the importance the Qing elite attached to preserving a distinct identity that drew on their military prowess, nomadic hunting traditions and different cultural tradition.

In fact, the use of the Manchu language in documents continued to the end of the dynasty and throughout the period of Manchu rule there were--literally--tons of documents that the Manchus did not translate into Chinese. The Chinese were, after all, one of many subject peoples in the great multi-ethnic Qing empire.

That said, not everyone got the memo. As Kate and the NYT noted, almost immediately upon the consolidation of their dynasty, the Qing court began fretting about Manchus losing their cultural identity by speaking Chinese and hanging out with the "soft" Han population. Manchu as a spoken language, even among the Manchu banners, was all but a thing of the past by the early 20th century. Though as Pamela Crossley has shown, in the 19th and early 20th century Manchu identity still remained strong.

The number of untranslated Manchu documents means that there is rich mine of sources available for the enterprising Qing historian who wishes to crack up on his or her Manchu language skills. Sadly, the number of people actively studying Manchu is still quite small, even in China:

“If 100 people spent 100 years translating this archive they would still be unable to finish,” said Zhao Aping, director of the Manchu Language and Culture Research Center at Heilongjiang University in Harbin.

The Chinese government has allocated money to Qing historical research in recent years but very few students are interested in mastering a language that has little use outside the archives. Fifteen students are enrolled at Heilongjiang University’s Manchu language program, about half the total studying the language in China.

Personally, one of the goals I set for myself upon entering graduate school was to learn Manchu. I don't have any illusions that I could rival someone like Mark Elliot for his extensive knowledge of the language but it seemed to me that one couldn't really study the Qing and not know a little bit of the language of the ruling elite. I carried a copy of the Gertrude Roth Li textbook around with me for years before the UC Davis library decided they wanted it back. I'm still working toward my goal, but it's a slower process right now.

Needless to say, sadder than the dearth of Manchu in the academy is the death of yet another of the world's languages.

“The spoken Manchu language is now a living fossil,” said Zhao Aping, an ethnic Manchu and an expert on Manchu language and history at Heilongjiang University in the provincial capital, Harbin. “Although we are expending a lot of energy on preserving the language and culture, it is very difficult. The environment is not right,” he added.

Despite the predictions that it is now only a matter of time before Manchu falls silent, in Sanjiazi, Ms. Meng [an older villager] clings to hope. “I don’t have much time,” she said. “I don’t even know if I have tomorrow, but I will use the time to teach my grandchildren. “It is our language; how can we let it die? We are Manchu people.”


I know I'm a historian and a bit of a romantic, as well as prone to tacky and sappy sentiments, but I do feel that when a language dies, we lose a window into a culture. Linguistic theorists may or may not disagree with me...certainly I have no background or training in this field. But throughout the world, not the least of all China with its enforced policy of Mandarin in schools and in the broadcast media, languages are passing away as the last native speakers grow old and leave us.

花崗齋文集 Collected Writings from the Granite Studio: The Manchu language fades into history

it seems that u are not familiar with what u quoted, sir. please, read up Mark Elliot and Pamela Crossley in the passage u quoted above. they have a good deal of writings to show u what the manchurian community consists of. one of my students had just done a master thesis a yr ago on the subject, and i get to read some of their works. althou i dont totally agree with Elliot, i think his writing is a good basis for non chinese readers regarding manchurian origins and their decline. it is no point quoting their names without reading them.

besides, true manchurians dont share chinese surnames. the 'ethnic manchus' mentioned in ur passage are what i called, descendents of the chinese 8 banners among the manchurians. they already gave up their lineage either voluntarily or involuntarily, and yet they say they want to revive it?

[dave lukins]

Originally Posted by Aniki

one of my students had just done a master thesis a yr ago on the subject, and i get to read some of their works. althou i dont totally agree with Elliot, i think his writing is a good basis for non chinese readers regarding manchurian origins and their decline. it is no point quoting their names without reading them.

Do you disagree with Elliot because he is wrong? If so, why should we read something that is wrong. If he is not wrong what do you disagree with?

[Aniki]

Originally Posted by Ray

Prelude to Modern China

Hopefully it will help to realise that we (non Mainland Chi8nese) are not totally uneducated!

We read, we remember and we know what is happening beyond our frontiers!

hahaha, of cos non chinese can be well versed in chinese history too, no doubt about that. but what u posted never tell us the origins of the manchus or the components of the 8 banner system, and are somehow factually incorrect.

as what u posted, the forefathers of the manchus are the jurchens, which established an empire during the 12th-13th century. but where did the jurchens came from? they were the distant descendants of a group of nomads called the Malgal('mohe' in chinese), which was part of a country called 'Balhae'(bo'hai in chinese, 698-926 AD) in northeast china. they were also somewhat related to the koreans.

the jurchens were conquered by the mongols eventually. after the mongols ruled china briefly for a century, they were defeat by the han chinese which in turn established the ming dynasty. the jurchens were subdued by ming dynasty, not some independent entities. in fact, one of the reasons for Chienchou jurchens going against ming dynasty, was becos all 3 tribes were trying to gain favours from their ming overlord, and ended up with Nuerhaci's father, of the chienchou jurchens, being murdered by some haixi jurchen in the process.

when Abahai renamed the jurchens to 'manju' or 'manju gurun', it is true that they want to avoid the 'Chin dynasty' taboo. but the new name was only a derivative of their original tribe name, the Malgals.

it was only after emperor Kangxi, the grandson of Abahai, being given the title of 'Manjusri(a bodhisattva in buddhism) Khan' by the tibetans, after he expelled outer mongolian tribes and conquered tibet, did the name 'manchu' became former.

regarding the 8 banners system, it is a military unit among the manchurian which roots can be found in the mongolian social system. a banner is something like a brigade or a division in mordern army, commanding smaller units that made up 3 or 4 level of command. every ethnic manchurian is born in this system. anyone who hide their newborns from the clan registry will be severely punished. the eight banners system also includes chinese and mongolian tribes of inner mongolia who joined the manchurians early. they formed the 'hanjun 8 banners' and 'mongolian 8 banners'. they too, were strictly monitored but they enjoy privileges too. they take monthly/yearly allowances from the govt, but they cannot be involved in merchandise trading, agriculture or handicrafts. they are military reserves in the first place, and the govt was afraid that involving in other occupations will degrade their military performance.

all in all, the manchurian identity was formed with the 8 banners system as the only linkage. after the 1911 revolution, however, with the distingeration of the banners system and the removal of special rights from the manchurian, the manchurian identity had became a liability, and manchurians gave it up.

for a closer examination, u can check Mark Elliot's books on these issues, esp on the banners system.

[Aniki]

Originally Posted by dave lukins

Do you disagree with Elliot because he is wrong? If so, why should we read something that is wrong. If he is not wrong what do you disagree with?

the reason it is a good read is becos it provides detailed description in many aspects regarding the manchurians. i disagree becos i have different opinions and i weigh certain things differently on some minor issues, like maybe i think he thinks too highly of the usefulness of the manchurian language, or maybe he portayed the manchurians as the victim too much. i generally agree on his findings and theories on the origins of manchurian and his explaination of the manchurain social system.

chinese saying, it is better to have no book, than to believe everything in a book.

[Aniki]

[quote=Ray;520825]

QUIT BEING CUTE!

Come down to brasstacks!

The more I read of the Han culture, I find that they are more racists than the West!

nah, chinese are more cultural supremacists. the context of 'ethnicity' in chinese has 2 meanings basically. one is the family bloodline, the other is the cultural heritage. most of the time, family bloodline is more subdue and cultural heritage is the more obvious thing we are talking about, since cultur is the only thing the chinese outshines its neighbours.

the barbarians in chinese history, as long as they decided to pick up the chinese way of life, will be considered chinese. thruout chinese history in the past 2200 yrs, there are numerous 'barbarian officials'(bloodline) serving in chinese courts and being promoted to high ranks, simple becos they were no longer considered 'barbarians' when they embraced the chinese culture.

[Ray]

Zeng,

Yes, I have also heard that some sect of Tibetan Buddhism has been given the cold shoulder by the Dalai LaMA.

If that is true, then it is most incorrect thing to do.

[Ray]

[quote=Aniki;521165]

Originally Posted by Ray

nah, chinese are more cultural supremacists. the context of 'ethnicity' in chinese has 2 meanings basically. one is the family bloodline, the other is the cultural heritage. most of the time, family bloodline is more subdue and cultural heritage is the more obvious thing we are talking about, since cultur is the only thing the chinese outshines its neighbours.

the barbarians in chinese history, as long as they decided to pick up the chinese way of life, will be considered chinese. thruout chinese history in the past 2200 yrs, there are numerous 'barbarian officials'(bloodline) serving in chinese courts and being promoted to high ranks, simple becos they were no longer considered 'barbarians' when they embraced the chinese culture.

If barbaric inhumanism is Chinese heritage. then it surely is shining in glistening blood!And it outshnes not only its neighbours. but the world!

the barbarians in chinese history, as long as they decided to pick up the chinese way of life, will be considered chinese. thruout chinese history in the past 2200 yrs,

Is it mandatory to accept Han culture to not be considered as barbarians? What makes you feel that Han culture is a panacea of all issues?

I think it is a bogus one!

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by astralis

as for nancy pelosi, the less said by her the better. she's a hypocrite on almost every single issue she deals with.

Slight tangent here: have you ever noticed that she says she fights for the little people (average joes, not dwarves) yet she has never worn the same dress/suit to work twice?

[Officer of Engineers]

Originally Posted by Ray

If barbaric inhumanism is Chinese heritage. then it surely is shining in glistening blood!And it outshnes not only its neighbours. but the world!

Sir, I would've thought the Tai Ping Rebellion confirmed that the Chinese are more barbarous to each other than they ever were to outsiders.

Originally Posted by Ray

Is it mandatory to accept Han culture to not be considered as barbarians? What makes you feel that Han culture is a panacea of all issues?

I think it is a bogus one!

It is, Sir, but it's no different than any other blood thirsty group who identify themselves with a certain trait. Croats, Russians, Germans, etc all did more than their fair share of butchering all others.

[Ray]

Colonel,

I have nothing against China.

I presume it was what was current of the time.

Times have changed, The Commies and their votaries are still clinging on to old theories.

Are the Chinese daft?

[Aniki]

Originally Posted by Ray

If barbaric inhumanism is Chinese heritage. then it surely is shining in glistening blood!And it outshnes not only its neighbours. but the world!

Is it mandatory to accept Han culture to not be considered as barbarians? What makes you feel that Han culture is a panacea of all issues?

I think it is a bogus one!

well, it was so. any culture that survive history till present day has black spots with them, and probably a lot of black spots. no point denying. and stating a fact doesnt mean agreeing to it.

besides, chinese culture, aside from outshining its neighbours in the dark side, surely it outshines them in the bright sidies too. or it couldnt have survived.

and i think, again, that u misinterpreted my words. there is no such thing as 'mandatory', anyone is free to choose. chinese dont force their culture on others. to our chinese forefathers, it is only natural that other 'less civilised neighbours' learnt from them. u dont really see chinese dynasties actively exporting cultures or setting up laws to promote the chinese culture or language. they are confident enuff not to resort to such underbelly tactics. thruout chinese history, u only see minority dynasties like mongols or manchus issuing such laws to belittle other cultures. the reason chinese revolted against minority rule was not because of race, but due to the fact that minorities set up rules that belittled the chinese culture.

if u look at tang dynasty in the 7th-10th century, even thou the rulers are half minorities (the first few rulers had wives from minority races), they were never opposed. tang dynasty was the pride of chinese historians, with different cultures, religions and ethnicity prospering side by side. things only become ugly when one try to diminish others.