citanon

TopHatter,

Honesty requires an institution. I bet you would be saying much the same things about Americans if you managed to travel from 2008 America to 1908 America to do business. The construction of the Chinese legal system and enforcement mechanisms is woefully incomplete. Of course fraud and corruption are rampant. That says nothing about the relative honesty or dishonesty of the Chinese people nor does it indicate the future direction of Chinese society.

ravi12

The simple thing is, when china can come down on every tibetan seeking independence and at that time, it doesnt face these constraints. But when we ask them to do their obligations, all this helplessness comes up.

How about this? That gulsar is not made in a small room in the woods, but in a big factory - , making "ipods" requires big factories. When china has the manpower to go and search houses for photos, it damn well has the resources to stop these factories.

It doesnt do this, simply because it doesnt wish to stick to its end of bargain.

abhishek

Actually i tend to agree with ying here. Im no China lover, but why and how exactly do rich western countries with existing monopolies over high technology most of which they themselves acquired through industrial espionage over decades expect China to play by the rules Westerners made to protect their interests ?

Infact western nations themselves trounce over their own rules to protect their interests, and then point the finger at us third world'ers.

The china bashing in vogue is partly based on valid reasons, but a small part of it is most definitely due to the insecurity China's rise has caused among the global big shots.

Its really not that simple.

Officer of Engineers

No, it does not. Aside from the big monistaries, sthe CCP does not have the manpower to go into every home, every village in Tibet. It merely controls the roads so that it limits but not eliminate the communications. Hell, 1000 Tibetans cross into India what almost every 2nd week? That is one hell of a leakage of supposedly a tight border.

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Chimo

TopHatter

If this was 1908, I could see your point. But it's not. It's Two-Thousand And F-cking Eight and the Chinese had better start realizing that.


And if I'd been dealing with the Chinese legal system or it's enforcement for the past 5 years, once again I could see your point.

But I've been dealing with individual Chinese businesses and people and I'm telling you right here and now that the vast overwhelming majority of them don't have a concept of dishonesty or fraud. "As long as you are making money, then you are doing the right thing." THAT is their honesty. THAT is their Ethics.

I have shoved the proof of their fraud under their noses time and time again and I always get the same response: "Well, the product is still good, please try it anyway."

We're talking about microchips that go into medical machines, elevators, airplanes. IN OTHER WORDS I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE'S F-CKING LIVES BEING AT STAKE AND THESE 'HONEST' PEOPLE YOU REFER TO DON'T GIVE A DAMN OR DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE

GET IT?

glyn

[quote=abhishek;482707]Actually i tend to agree with ying here. Im no China lover, but why and how exactly do rich western countries with existing monopolies over high technology most of which they themselves acquired through industrial espionage over decades expect China to play by the rules Westerners made to protect their interests ?

Who do you suggest these rich western countries were spying on? Do you disagree with 'the rules westerners made to protect their interests'? In fact they are laws, so are you saying you wouldn't avail yourself of the laws protection if you were a manufacturer who was being copied?

Infact western nations themselves trounce over their own rules to protect their interests, and then point the finger at us third world'ers.

Examples please.

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Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

citanon

It's very simple. Different legal environments creates selective pressures favoring different business behavior. The fact that you have been dealing with dishonest people is Darwinism at work. Namely, the present legal environment favors survival of less-than-honest businesses in your particular sector. One needs only to examine sectors in American business opaque to regulatory and legal supervision to find examples of dishonesty. Need I remind you of Enron and other financial scandals or the behavior of some American PMCs in Iraq, or irregularities in UN food for oil program, or pharmaceutical industry reluctance to disclose unfavorable clinical trial results, or the efforts of the American tobacco industry during the past half century?

If there are still plenty of legal and regulatory loopholes in the United States after nearly 300 continuous years of legalist government operations and reforms, then is it really surprising that China, a country that only tentatively began to construct its legal and regulatory system in the early 80's, today has an incomplete and chaotic legal system?

Ray

They allow Tibetans to cross so that it reduces the Tibetan population in Tibet.

Clever ethnic cleansing and none can complain.

As also burden the Indian economy with refugees.

Killing two birds with one stone!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Officer of Engineers

Sir,

Insightful.

Ray

Colonel,

Maybe in my last life I was a Chinese steeped in legalism.

Indeed, if I were, I am proud of it!

That is why I am quick in my defence of my country.

However, maybe my exposure to western thought in this life has mellowed me a wee bit, where I can see the stupidity of my country of choice too!!

And yet it does not blind me to realtime angles of an issue.

ravi12

Sir,
I understand that there was a little wee bit of extrapolation

The gulsar and "chinese ipods" are not made by small towners but made by "respectable and big" chinese companies. The gulsar is advertised all over china and marketed for export to latin america, sri lanka and where not.

Actually I wouldnt be surprised if most of these companies have the chinese govt itself as the majority share holder. Well, when chery made the QQ copying matiz, GM faced the problem that GM itself was the minority shareholder in it, with another being the chinese govt itself.

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consider the makers sir, with their vast i mean vast (larger product line than the biggest motorcycle company of india and the chinese govt cant do anything about them? I think it is a case of mostly doing a blind eye to it than anything else.

Tronic

There are laws which just those westerners developed to make sure that the market remains innovative. It is not "their" interests which are being protected. It is in the interest of every damn innovator and inventor out there.

Example?

Thats just bull. If those global big shots were so insecure, they wouldn't even allow China to rise. I would like to see how China would grow if those 'big shots' you refer to slap sanctions. It is not the West who seems insecure at China; but it seems as you being insecure about the West.

__________________
Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

zraver

My student job is working as a writing tutor. Do you know what the single biggest issue with Chinese students is? Plagarism and source citation, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery in China. They don't have a clue about intellectual property rights. Getting them to properly cite sources, or not simply lift whole works is like pulling teeth.

citanon

Citation of sources is something fairly peculiar to Western countries in my experience. In China, daily conversation draws on a rich fabric of stories and fables, all of which were invented by somebody at some point, none of which are stated starting with "so and so said". So yes, that's a problem, mainly because it simply isn't emphasized that much in China, and does not evoke as much controversy. I too am annoyed by this, but, considering the amount of definitely legal music that have magically appeared on someone else's HD that I may have had access to in the definite past, perhaps I should not be the one to cast the first stone.

These issues will sort them out once the proper frameworks are put in place and the academic field and other sectors becomes more fairly competitive.

On a side note, anyone who has spent any significant amount of time in China lately will agree with me that the far more urgent aspect of Western culture that needs transplanting to China is obedience to traffic rules.

TopHatter

Wonderful. Then the Chinese can go play in a different economic environment. God knows they sure want to.

Sorry, once again, ain't happening.

Not quite, but thank you for your uninformed opinion. Try this instead: Namely, the present legal environment presently favors survival of less-than-honest Chinese businesses in my particular sector, but that state of affairs cannot and will not last much longer.

One only needs to laugh at the "point the finger at somebody else" response that seems to come up again and again.

The difference between the United States and China is that people actually get prosecuted after they're caught committing fraud, from the top on down. In China, somebody who get's caught a little too publicly gets picked to be an example, has the benefit of a show trial, followed by a swift execution...and the beat goes on.

The funny thing is, China actually has pretty good laws...but they are shackled to a corrupt JOKE of a justice system and a gang of goons and thugs for a government.

That's it in a nutshell. It's quite simply ingrained in the fabric of their culture, aided and abetted by a justice system and a government that feels exactly the same way.

It's no big deal to them...kind of like driving 3 or 4 miles over the speed limit here in the United States...no big deal.

And this country (China) feels that they can bring this to the world economic scene and woe to the person who crys foul.

Enjoy it while it lasts guys.