Cactus

No, it doesn't. It comes because of deliberate uncertainty engendered by situations like this:

It is a convenient, self-glorifying construct to believe otherwise.

FYI we are currently more scared of a few thousand cave-dwellers with a nihilistic and absolute hatred of our way of life, than the millions of myrmidions of the PLA. So somewhere out there is a Talibunny that is jacking-off at the idea that we fear him becuse he is oh-so-choosen-by-Allah etc etc. At one level he is right, we do fear him. But at another level he is totally wrong in guessing the reaction our fear will bring about.

TopHatter

Hey wait a minute! I want to be a running dog too!

Sir, I can only say that I understand how the Chinese in my industry do business. I have no doubt that this is the general business attitude over there as well.

This is how the PRC Chinese have consistently done business, as I have observed it:

• Lie, Steal, Cheat. Those are your cardinal rules.
  
• There is no place for Morals, Scruples or Ethics, because 'This is China'
  
• If confronted with proof of your fraudulent dealings, either ignore the accusation and the proof or persist in your claim that the product is still good and that it can be used.

There are many other "rules" and sub-rules that I have observed over the last 5 years, but those are probably the Big Three. The sooner that you learn and accept those rules (especially the first one), then you will have a much easier time of dealing with our fraternal socialist comrades in the People's Republic.

If you don't know or don't accept those rules, you will find that doing business in China is like bashing your head into brick wall...after which, you will find your wallet missing.

Ray

Chinese members,

That does not come from a ''running dog's'' mouth, but right from the ''horse's mouth''.

Now, don't go thinking he is a horse, he continues to be a human being and quite good one at that too!!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

chankya

Why is it that most Chinese members start with a "I come in peace" line or a "harmonious coexistence"? Understandably under attack you revert to the "you all suck" line that everyone else uses. My question really is about the start. I've read that culturally the Chinese are averse to social conflict and go to great lengths to avoid it. Is that what is at play here?

I'm not trying to be insulting here. I'm just genuinely curious as to why that is the overwhelming trend. If the first poster were to say "i come in peace" and then support the CCP and get thrashed for it, why would successive posters continue to start with the passive-aggressive tone? Why not start aggressive?

__________________
"Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

Ray

Those are phrases drummed into the mental chemistry so that they lull the people as they strike deep with the sword into you and ask you to thank them thereafter!

Pure Chinese Communist politeness to cover heinous imperialist and colonialist crimes and propaganda!!

And they condemn the Opium Wars!!

Double faced chicanery!!

TopHatter

Dammit I said I wanted to be a running dog!

Or perhaps even a capitalist pig!

As far as a horse, I've been called a Horse's Ass (or arse, if you will) but I'm sure it was said only in the nicest possible way!


A very Asian (by which I mean the so-called "Orient") way of beginning a conversation into perhaps a touchy subject. You approach it obliquely and politely.

According to that article I posted a little while back (wish I could find it), it drives returning Chinese student up the wall.

ying

Do you know how many times Chinese were cheated by foreign traders, especially during 1980s and the early of 1990s when most Chinese were almost ignorant about the international trade? Due to the serious losses our business man suffered, Chinese government even issued some guidelines to teach Chinese business to know how to avoid being cheated. Did we Chinese complain what happened to us? No, we just call it as the “tuition fee’ we should pay to learn what we are ignorant. So, stop complaining how bad Chinese traders are. Pay what you should pay to learn how to do business in China. If you can not bear up those “unfair’ rules, please just leave. We are doing business in the market not doing charity.

If you still have to blame something, please do not say it is all our Chinese fault. We learnt capitalism from westerns. Have you any idea about how bloody capitalism is in China? Being an ex-labor-lawyer, I have plenty of cases to prove what I said.

What can a part-time Chinese employee of McDonald's afford by his hourly pay?
Only two small ice creams, which are valued at four yuan (US50cents)
McDonald's, KFC under fire for labor rights violations 英文网刊Fland.cn-McDonald's, KFC under fire for labor rights violations

Profits before human lives - where does Chinese Capitalism come from?
Interlocals.net | Profits before human lives - where does Chinese Capitalism come from?

I have no time to find out the English report on all cases I have on hand. The interesting thing is it is Chinese Central government that firmly fights back the capitalism in terms of labor right protection. The new Labor Contract Law, which became effective in Jan, 2008, was widely and strongly opposed by western companies. It’s reported that even the representatives from western companies shouted “we will withdraw all our investment in China if this labor contract law is issued by China” in a hearing of legislation. Ironically, these capitalists still stay in China now after the effectiveness of Labor Contract Law. Of course, they do complain everything in China, the new labor law, the Chinese who do not respect their rules of game, how rude those ignorant Chinese are, and etc.

I didn’t mean Chinese are “holy’. We are just ordinary people with all the weakness of human being. It is groundless for you to jump into the conclusion that all Chinese is ********. It is typical stereotyping. If I say all westerners are racialists since I was insulted by some white guys in the Sates, do you think my conclusion is correct? Can I say all western companies are the accessory to CCP to help it oppress Chinese people since some of them helped CCP to block Chinese from free access to Internet?

Indirect Fire

Copying our products illegally is "fair" under your definition? I'd consider that stealing, and so would the Western world.


Capitalism? Bloodier that Communism? I find that hard to believe. Besides, we can all say what we think we are.

And you're saying that the West is "slaving" your people? It's actually called the CCP.

Whoa Whoa Whoa. Where did you get this from? TopHatter meant businesses, not people.

What are you trying to drive here?

They've been studying too much history from 1962 (India-China Bhai-Bhai [Remember how that went?])

__________________
I have no idea what I'm doing. Honestly!

ying

Don’t you understand why? Let me tell you in simple: because WAB is a biased forum. Most Chinese posters left with disappointment. But I don’t want to complain. Have you ever noticed how many topics about China in this board? How many of the topics are bashing China and Chinese? I noticed some of you guys do understand China very well and even better than some Chinese. But their opinion is so weak that be covered by overwhelming anti-China wave. Only the topics of bashing China are attractive to most of you. CCP, Chinese’s claim on territory, Chinese traditional history, everything may be the target. To be honest, I was astonished when I came here to. But now, I just feel funny.

ying

Don’t forget you India is one of biggest manufactures of generic drug in this world, like China.. I don’t say we should “steal”. But we Chinese also do not complain when we doing business under the rules totally made by westerns.

You didn’t read my threads. Did I say cartelism is bloodier than Communism? No, they are the same in most cases. But in terms of labor rights, I do believe only our government care Chinese labor and trying to do something to protect our labor.

You don’t know the story of Chinese internet? Ok, search in the internet, you will find how Chinese was blocked under some western companies’ assistance to CCP.

TopHatter

I'm not terribly interesting in your justifications for organized fraud. I've heard it from more Chinese posters on boards (not to mention the ass-holes that have tried to rip off my company) that I'm frankly tired of it.

Basically what you're saying is that fraud perpetuated by Chinese businesses is just and OK to do.


What you call "unfair" rules are what the rest of the world calls CRIME.

So basically what you're saying is that the Chinese people are entitled to do whatever they want, however they want and if the rest of the world doesn't like, then that's just tough.

Well guess what Comrade, that attitude won't take you very far in the business world. Sooner or later your house of cards is going to come crashing down...probably sooner, given the rate at which your country seems to be trying to poison the rest of the world.

You'd better hope like HELL that there isn't a mass food-poisoning incident during the Olympics, when all the eyes of the world will be on your country.

A labor-lawyer? In China? That is one sad, sick JOKE.

The "law" in China.

The law in China is "Who can you pay off with a nice bribe?"

The "law". Give me a break! Your so-called court system is about as phony and corrupt as the propaganda that your government spews out on a daily basis.

Spare me the rest of your "We're the victims" bullshi!, I'm tired of hearing it.

ying

Letting a ten years old child to fight with an adult under the rules made by the adult, can you say it is “fair”? I never say I think Chinese is entitled to do whatever we want to do. But in terms of “crime”, please provide at least a concrete evidence to prove what you said.

If you talking about corruption. I think I had never said Chinese is clean. But are you western companies clean? How dose the FCPA come? Do you know how common that the foreigners working for international companies in China ask “benefits” from Chinese suppliers and vendors? Corruption is something dirty and common to various nations. What we should do is not blaming one nation or another but working together to get ride of it. Remember, claiming Chinese is totally corrupted can not prove western are holy or superior to China. I am ashamed of the corruption problem we Chinese have, but I think those people who are collecting money in bloody way from ordinary Chinese labors and at the same time criticizing the human rights situation in China should also be despised.

astralis

cactus,

to the question of numbers- what adux said, how many white imperial troops (and not sepoys, for instance).

also, many of the troops were positioned for imperial defense against the russians, as opposed to internal security.

certainly a number of factors led to the downfall of the empire, trade, technology, democracy, etc etc. however, THE biggest reason is simply nationalism.

regarding your deliberate uncertainty,

i don't think so. the US and china, for example, both use deliberate uncertainty when it comes to responses regarding the taiwan strait. this is a strategy many other nations use, so this isn't a china-specific problem IMO.

__________________
Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

astralis

ying,

considering your background, you should know then that chinese companies hurt chinese people with their bad products and corruption far more than westerners ever have. how many people die each year in illegal (under chinese law!) coal mines? what about the incident of the restroom-made haagen-daaz ice cream?

part of the reason why china finds it so hard to clean up corruption is because the system itself is wired for it. anyone who's gone to china and worked in china knows all about bribing the local CCP officials- who's going to tell them they shouldn't be doing that?

zraver

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