Something You Won't See in China

Bigfella · 04-13-2008, 03:55 AM

Today saw thousands of Chinese subjects take to the streets of Sydney and Melbourne to show their support for their government. Carrying Chinese flags and banners proclaiming that Tibet is and should be part of China, the protesters criticized Tibetans, pro-Tibet demonstrators, Western governments, the Western media & pretty much anyone critical of China.

This is a photo montage of the event in Sydney.

YouTube - Australia Sydney Chinese protest photos

I want every apologist for the Chinese government to watch and read up as much as they can on these protests. No doubt they will feature in the media in China. I want our Chinese posters to understand exactly what is happening here:

*Thousands of people, few of them Australian citizens, have marched through Australia's two largest cities to support a foreign dictatorship.

*They have filled our streets with the flags of a foreign nation, flags that represent perhaps the most violent political organization in human history.

*These protests directly oppose the views of the government of Australia.

*No one was beaten. No one was hurt. There was no attempt made before or during the protest to stop it. No one was photographed or followed by government spies.

Are protests like this allowed in China? I'm guessing not.

Am I opposed to this? Am I unhappy? Am I angry that a group of foreigners should be allowed to disrupt the centre of my nation's two largest cities to present an opinion I disagree with, and support a government I despise? NO!

I am PROUD to be an Australian today. I am PROUD that my nation gives foreign visitors the right to protest and voice their opinions as if they were citizens. This is the essence of freedom - the right for people you DISAGREE with to speak as freely as those you agree with.

I want China apologists to look at this and feel shame. This week my Prime Minister gave a speech in China in mandarin. Ordinary Chinese are still not allowed to read the full text of that speech - it has been censored by the Chinese government. Yet we have no trouble allowing supporters of this government vioce their views openly in Australia. My nation gives foreigners with whom it disagrees more rights than China gives its own people and I an DAMNED PROUD of the fact.

Ray · 04-13-2008, 04:10 AM

Quote:

The New York Times
April 13, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
China’s Loyal Youth
By MATTHEW FORNEY

Beijing

MANY sympathetic Westerners view Chinese society along the lines of what they saw in the waning days of the Soviet Union: a repressive government backed by old hard-liners losing its grip to a new generation of well-educated, liberal-leaning sophisticates. As pleasant as this outlook may be, it’s naïve. Educated young Chinese, far from being embarrassed or upset by their government’s human-rights record, rank among the most patriotic, establishment-supporting people you’ll meet.

As is clear to anyone who lives here, most young ethnic Chinese strongly support their government’s suppression of the recent Tibetan uprising. One Chinese friend who has a degree from a European university described the conflict to me as “a clash between the commercial world and an old aboriginal society.” She even praised her government for treating Tibetans better than New World settlers treated Native Americans.

It’s a rare person in China who considers the desires of the Tibetans themselves. “Young Chinese have no sympathy for Tibet,” a Beijing human-rights lawyer named Teng Biao told me. Mr. Teng — a Han Chinese who has offered to defend Tibetan monks caught up in police dragnets — feels very alone these days. Most people in their 20s, he says, “believe the Dalai Lama is trying to split China.”

Educated young people are usually the best positioned in society to bridge cultures, so it’s important to examine the thinking of those in China. The most striking thing is that, almost without exception, they feel rightfully proud of their country’s accomplishments in the three decades since economic reforms began. And their pride and patriotism often find expression in an unquestioning support of their government, especially regarding Tibet.

The most obvious explanation for this is the education system, which can accurately be described as indoctrination. Textbooks dwell on China’s humiliations at the hands of foreign powers in the 19th century as if they took place yesterday, yet skim over the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s and ’70s as if it were ancient history. Students learn the neat calculation that Chairman Mao’s tyranny was “30 percent wrong,” then the subject is declared closed. The uprising in Tibet in the late 1950s, and the invasion that quashed it, are discussed just long enough to lay blame on the “Dalai clique,” a pejorative reference to the circle of advisers around Tibet’s spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

Then there’s life experience — or the lack of it — that might otherwise help young Chinese to gain a perspective outside the government’s viewpoint. Young urban Chinese study hard and that’s pretty much it. Volunteer work, sports, church groups, debate teams, musical skills and other extracurricular activities don’t factor into college admission, so few participate. And the government’s control of society means there aren’t many non-state-run groups to join anyway. Even the most basic American introduction to real life — the summer job — rarely exists for urban students in China.

Recent Chinese college graduates are an optimistic group. And why not? The economy has grown at a double-digit rate for as long as they can remember. Those who speak English are guaranteed good jobs. Their families own homes. They’ll soon own one themselves, and probably a car too. A cellphone, an iPod, holidays — no problem. Small wonder the Pew Research Center in Washington described the Chinese in 2005 as “world leaders in optimism.”

As for political repression, few young Chinese experience it. Most are too young to remember the Tiananmen massacre of 1989 and probably nobody has told them stories. China doesn’t feel like a police state, and the people young Chinese read about who do suffer injustices tend to be poor — those who lost homes to government-linked property developers without fair compensation or whose crops failed when state-supported factories polluted their fields.

Educated young Chinese are therefore the biggest beneficiaries of policies that have brought China more peace and prosperity than at any time in the past thousand years. They can’t imagine why Tibetans would turn up their noses at rising incomes and the promise of a more prosperous future. The loss of a homeland just doesn’t compute as a valid concern.

Of course, the nationalism of young Chinese may soften over time. As college graduates enter the work force and experience their country’s corruption and inefficiency, they often grow more critical. It is received wisdom in China that people in their 40s are the most willing to challenge their government, and the Tibet crisis bears out that observation. Of the 29 ethnic-Chinese intellectuals who last month signed a widely publicized petition urging the government to show restraint in the crackdown, not one was under 30.

Barring major changes in China’s education system or economy, Westerners are not going to find allies among the vast majority of Chinese on key issues like Tibet, Darfur and the environment for some time. If the debate over Tibet turns this summer’s contests in Beijing into the Human Rights Games, as seems inevitable, Western ticket-holders expecting to find Chinese angry at their government will instead find Chinese angry at them.

Matthew Forney, a former Beijing bureau chief for Time, is writing a book about raising his family in China.

Does give the perspective into the young Chinese minds!!

It is obvious that China is sensitive to protest since they want to lull the population into believing it is a land of milk and honey.

Repeated propaganda does indoctrinate the mind and soon people start believing what is told a la Goebbel's advice. This more so when there are some stunning showpiece achievements like ant satellite missiles, man in space etc since these things to bring a sense of pride and achievement.

Propaganda and disinformation are real powerful tools and the Chinese govt has mastered the art well, as also Communists do.

Indeed, the Chinese are a very patriotic people who overlook such serious aberrations as human rights, violent repression since the Chinese mindset has been conditioned through history in the concept of Legalism, which in essence, means the State knows Best! A bit like Big Brother is Watching YOU!

Mobbme · 04-13-2008, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Does give the perspective into the young Chinese minds!!

It is obvious that China is sensitive to protest since they want to lull the population into believing it is a land of milk and honey.

Repeated propaganda does indoctrinate the mind and soon people start believing what is told a la Goebbel's advice. This more so when there are some stunning showpiece achievements like ant satellite missiles, man in space etc since these things to bring a sense of pride and achievement.

Propaganda and disinformation are real powerful tools and the Chinese govt has mastered the art well, as also Communists do.

Indeed, the Chinese are a very patriotic people who overlook such serious aberrations as human rights, violent repression since the Chinese mindset has been conditioned through history in the concept of Legalism, which in essence, means the State knows Best! A bit like Big Brother is Watching YOU!

Sir, your country arrested dozens of protestors lol a bit hypocrital no?

Ray · 04-13-2008, 04:25 AM

The Chinese youths protests in Australia showcases the true spirit of democracy where genuinely a 1000 flowers are allowed to bloom and not let it remain a part of fanciful rhetoric like Mao, which the Chinese of that time and maybe even now lap up with delight!

Action speaks more that words and dreams!

Ray · 04-13-2008, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobbme

Sir, your country arrested dozens of protestors lol a bit hypocrital no?

Arrested, yes.

But not thrashed the living daylights out of!

Or, steeped in believing in the theory of Legalism i.e. the State knows best because it is your Mother and Father and your Provider!

I hope you know what is legalism. Read it up.

Has protests been banned in India?

How many protests or rallies you see in China?

Apples and Oranges.

Further, love as you might the Chinese Communist way, it is not the same as that is done in Tibet.

Next, my country is run by a govt that is propped up by the Communists and so they maintain a fine balance! And the Communists betrayed India in the Quit India Movement, 1962 and now!! Their pro Russia and now pro China loyalty is legend.

And yet, the Govt has told China that even if they insists, pro Tibet rallies or pro China rallies cannot be banned.

There are many I believe around the world fishing for a free pass the Olympics by going out of their way to praise the way the Chinese are handling the issue as also condemning nations allowing protests or condemning arrests, or so I learn.

Adux · 04-13-2008, 04:42 AM

Mobbe,

Though not the same as you implied, i am ashamed of my government

Adux · 04-13-2008, 04:44 AM

Ray Sir,

The torch should not be protected by PLA henchmen, not on my soil.

Ray · 04-13-2008, 04:50 AM

Japan has stated that the Chinese 'thugs' (the Chinese commandos in blue track suits) will not be allowed to run with the torch to protect it.

I would not be surprised if our Communist propped govt not hand over the total security of everything to the Chinese.

Commie lovers!!

Adux · 04-13-2008, 04:58 AM

Sir,

If we dont take up the challenge, our future generations will suffer for our complete ineptness in strategic and national security.

I have heard conflicting reports about the PLA thugs running cover in our country. I hope it is not allowed; its a spit on the face of the tibetians and everyone who have given life in ITBP. I value that deeply.

That doesnt mean torch should not come to India, though it would have been better if the Olympics was not given to the Chinese in the first place.

Ray · 04-13-2008, 05:02 AM

I am not calling the Chinese Torch protectors thugs.

Lord Coe said.

Quote:

Lord Coe blasts 'horrible Chinese thugs' who barged their way through London as IOC considers scrapping the relay

Lord Coe blasts 'horrible Chinese thugs' who barged their way through London as IOC considers scrapping the relay | the Daily Mail

Adux · 04-13-2008, 05:05 AM

Sir,

I am calling them thugs and henchmen. You are far too humble and forgiving. I am not. I sincerely wish the Chinese up the ante, it will give us ample reason to clamp down on the commie traitors here or even better ban the whole damn thing; its a failure everywhere it has been.

Sir can you please put your comments about this : China: Latest assessments of strategic experts on Sino-Indian ties

ned kelly · 04-13-2008, 05:13 AM

i just saw these protests on the news and was rather amused.....certainly a lot of the attendees were foreign students, but hey, whats wrong with a little swelling of the numbers...

but yes, they sort of proved the western world's point for them didn't they?
Bigfella you are right, could they do this in tibet or any other part of china, to protest against the chinese government and their policies if the situation was reversed?

certainly not. oh the irony of it all.

Ray · 04-13-2008, 05:45 AM

Your land is my land (to protest) but my land is not yours or anyone's to protest.

We are Heavenly and Peaceful!

That is the cute theory!

Internal matters!

Blasted goose-stepping hypocrites to use a favourite term!

rj1 · 04-13-2008, 09:29 AM

This is a previous post I made elsewhere tying the Olympics protests to China and how pointless I thought they were.

Quote:

Let me state that I empathize with the Tibetans.

Let me then state that they will be conquered by the Chinese for decades and maybe even centuries to come.

No one cares. And by no one, I don't mean these people that were either brave enough or foolish enough to climb the Golden Gate Bridge to hang a "Free Tibet" banner or the people that extinguished the Olympic Flame in Paris. I mean no one with the power to ever actually affect change.

Let's look at the institution of the Olympics. It's a competition that masquerades as "pure sport" competed in by a wide range of athletes to "represent their country", when it is really nothing more than an advertising tool for a bunch of corporations. And who are these corporations? The bread and butter of American capitalism: the USOC's worldwide sponsors are Coca-Cola, Eastman Kodak, General Electric, John Hancock, Johnson & Johnson, Lenovo, McDonald's, Panasonic, Samsung, Visa.

By sponsoring an event, aren't these same corporations implicit in allowing China's crackdown on Tibet and human rights abuses by not saying anything about it? So are you going to not buy a Coke from now on cause they're sponsoring the games? Are you not going to watch Sunday Night Football this fall cause GE is showing the games on their networks? Are you going to not buy a Big Mac? How about your credit card, are you going to cancel it and go get an American Express or Mastercard? Are you going to trash your DVD player? Of course not. So the people that have a stake in China retaining their control over Tibet are going to have very minimal losses. The point of the Olympics is to make money, no different than any other sports competition in the world, include our World Cup. China has 20-25% of the world population, therefore corporations are willing to look the other way if it helps them make money in the long run.

All companies that then have business in China, which is a very large number, are complicit as well. Including the one I work for. But my company has to continue making money and it's not like I'm going to resign for some dumb-headed idealism that won't make a hill of beans' difference to how the world works.

Politicians. Does anyone think that the banner going up on the Golden Gate Bridge will actually "free Tibet"? Is George W. Bush going to turn on the evening news, look at that banner, and think "I'm going to assign troops to forcefully go free Tibet from China and stop this injustice."? How about the rest of the Republicans, are they going to threaten a nuclear holocaust by starting a war over Tibet? Ooh, the Democrats. Is Nancy Pelosi going to call for troops to go to Tibet? That'd be one heck of a role reversal.

Like I said, I empathize with Tibetans. But protests that are trying to say "shame on China" are just beyond pointless. Nothing is going to change. Why? Because no one gives a s*** about what normal people and typical middle-class or poor think. We are looked at by power brokers as surplus. They don't care about what you think and never will. If you can't accept that, start a revolution or start a war with the Chinese using your wallet. If you don't want to risk your life (which is why these injustices still stand), then do the limousine liberal protest and just don't watch the Olympics at all.

The same people that hung that banner on the Golden Gate Bridge, I'm willing to bet they also protested the Iraq War. Did the Iraq War protests do anything? No. So why should I think this protest will change anything when their first protest didn't have any effect on the realpolitik?

I don't delight in writing this, it's just the truth. And we'd all be better off admitting it, cause only then can we figure out what we think is best for the world's future.

"But rj1, people can't do these protests in China."

No s***. But do these protests actually do anything toward allowing people in China to do these protests? Not just no, but f*** no.

You want to hurt China? Go in your 401(k). Pull out all your money that goes to companies that do business in China. Stop buying any good that has any Chinese-made component. Most all multinational companies, most of which are the bread and butter of American capitalism, are doing business in the land of communism. Why? Because they make money there. And the reason they do business there is cause there is cheap labor which is helped by the communist government keeping poverty widespread. So if you have a 401(k) with a single Fortune 500 company, you are part of the reason the communist government is still in power.

I'm not holding my breath on people pulling out of their 401(k)s or willingly paying more money for the same part. Cause I know far too many people that act like upstanding, righteous people that spout off what they think of the wrongs of the world, but when they get called upon to actually sacrifice something to correct those wrongs, they look down, shuffle their feet, and say nothing.

For the record, my company I work for is in China, and I've done engineering work for the Chinese plant, it alongside India was half of our revenue increase for the 2007 fiscal year. But I realize that protesting the Chinese government has about as much meaning and is as worthwhile as a bunch of Arabs protesting the American government, which is none, cause nothing will change.

nonameitis · 04-13-2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Today saw thousands of Chinese subjects take to the streets of Sydney and Melbourne to show their support for their government. Carrying Chinese flags and banners proclaiming that Tibet is and should be part of China, the protesters criticized Tibetans, pro-Tibet demonstrators, Western governments, the Western media & pretty much anyone critical of China.

This is a photo montage of the event in Sydney.

YouTube - Australia Sydney Chinese protest photos

I want every apologist for the Chinese government to watch and read up as much as they can on these protests. No doubt they will feature in the media in China. I want our Chinese posters to understand exactly what is happening here:

*Thousands of people, few of them Australian citizens, have marched through Australia's two largest cities to support a foreign dictatorship.

*They have filled our streets with the flags of a foreign nation, flags that represent perhaps the most violent political organization in human history.

*These protests directly oppose the views of the government of Australia.

*No one was beaten. No one was hurt. There was no attempt made before or during the protest to stop it. No one was photographed or followed by government spies.

Are protests like this allowed in China? I'm guessing not.

Am I opposed to this? Am I unhappy? Am I angry that a group of foreigners should be allowed to disrupt the centre of my nation's two largest cities to present an opinion I disagree with, and support a government I despise? NO!

I am PROUD to be an Australian today. I am PROUD that my nation gives foreign visitors the right to protest and voice their opinions as if they were citizens. This is the essence of freedom - the right for people you DISAGREE with to speak as freely as those you agree with.

I want China apologists to look at this and feel shame. This week my Prime Minister gave a speech in China in mandarin. Ordinary Chinese are still not allowed to read the full text of that speech - it has been censored by the Chinese government. Yet we have no trouble allowing supporters of this government vioce their views openly in Australia. My nation gives foreigners with whom it disagrees more rights than China gives its own people and I an DAMNED PROUD of the fact.

your doubt totally shows you not understand our chinese at all

04-13-2008, 03:55 AM	#1 (permalink)
Bigfella *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-12-07 Location: Melbourne Posts: 754 Country:	Something You Won't See in China Today saw thousands of Chinese subjects take to the streets of Sydney and Melbourne to show their support for their government. Carrying Chinese flags and banners proclaiming that Tibet is and should be part of China, the protesters criticized Tibetans, pro-Tibet demonstrators, Western governments, the Western media & pretty much anyone critical of China. This is a photo montage of the event in Sydney. YouTube - Australia Sydney Chinese protest photos I want every apologist for the Chinese government to watch and read up as much as they can on these protests. No doubt they will feature in the media in China. I want our Chinese posters to understand exactly what is happening here: Thousands of people, few of them Australian citizens, have marched through Australia's two largest cities to support a foreign dictatorship. They have filled our streets with the flags of a foreign nation, flags that represent perhaps the most violent political organization in human history. These protests directly oppose the views of the government of Australia. No one was beaten. No one was hurt. There was no attempt made before or during the protest to stop it. No one was photographed or followed by government spies. Are protests like this allowed in China? I'm guessing not. Am I opposed to this? Am I unhappy? Am I angry that a group of foreigners should be allowed to disrupt the centre of my nation's two largest cities to present an opinion I disagree with, and support a government I despise? NO! I am PROUD to be an Australian today. I am PROUD that my nation gives foreign visitors the right to protest and voice their opinions as if they were citizens. This is the essence of freedom - the right for people you DISAGREE with to speak as freely as those you agree with. I want China apologists to look at this and feel shame. This week my Prime Minister gave a speech in China in mandarin. Ordinary Chinese are still not allowed to read the full text of that speech - it has been censored by the Chinese government. Yet we have no trouble allowing supporters of this government vioce their views openly in Australia. My nation gives foreigners with whom it disagrees more rights than China gives its own people and I an DAMNED PROUD of the fact. __________________ Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

04-13-2008, 05:13 AM	#12 (permalink)
ned kelly Regular Join Date: 02-18-08 Location: sydney Posts: 99 Country:	i just saw these protests on the news and was rather amused.....certainly a lot of the attendees were foreign students, but hey, whats wrong with a little swelling of the numbers... but yes, they sort of proved the western world's point for them didn't they? Bigfella you are right, could they do this in tibet or any other part of china, to protest against the chinese government and their policies if the situation was reversed? certainly not. oh the irony of it all. __________________ Illegitimi non carborundum

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04-13-2008, 04:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 25,850 Country:	The Chinese youths protests in Australia showcases the true spirit of democracy where genuinely a 1000 flowers are allowed to bloom and not let it remain a part of fanciful rhetoric like Mao, which the Chinese of that time and maybe even now lap up with delight! Action speaks more that words and dreams!

04-13-2008, 04:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	Mobbe, Though not the same as you implied, i am ashamed of my government

04-13-2008, 04:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	Ray Sir, The torch should not be protected by PLA henchmen, not on my soil.

04-13-2008, 04:50 AM	#8 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 25,850 Country:	Japan has stated that the Chinese 'thugs' (the Chinese commandos in blue track suits) will not be allowed to run with the torch to protect it. I would not be surprised if our Communist propped govt not hand over the total security of everything to the Chinese. Commie lovers!!

04-13-2008, 04:58 AM	#9 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	Sir, If we dont take up the challenge, our future generations will suffer for our complete ineptness in strategic and national security. I have heard conflicting reports about the PLA thugs running cover in our country. I hope it is not allowed; its a spit on the face of the tibetians and everyone who have given life in ITBP. I value that deeply. That doesnt mean torch should not come to India, though it would have been better if the Olympics was not given to the Chinese in the first place.

04-13-2008, 05:05 AM	#11 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	Sir, I am calling them thugs and henchmen. You are far too humble and forgiving. I am not. I sincerely wish the Chinese up the ante, it will give us ample reason to clamp down on the commie traitors here or even better ban the whole damn thing; its a failure everywhere it has been. Sir can you please put your comments about this : China: Latest assessments of strategic experts on Sino-Indian ties

04-13-2008, 05:45 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 25,850 Country:	Your land is my land (to protest) but my land is not yours or anyone's to protest. We are Heavenly and Peaceful! That is the cute theory! Internal matters! Blasted goose-stepping hypocrites to use a favourite term!

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