Bigfella

Ying,

Clearly your English is not good enough to understand the point I was making. I was responding to a series of Chinese posters, especially Hu Jintao, who were telling us that Tibetans actually had more rights than Han Chinese. Hu in particular seemed to be complaining about it. I simply took his logic to its conclusion. My post was intended to use humour to make a point about how ridiculous his posts were.

And just in case you think I am being rude about your language skills, two subsequent posters from non-English speaking backgrounds understood my point (apologies Ray, I suspect your English is better than mine).

I would point out again that the reason I criticize the Chinese government is because I like & respect Chinese people. That is why I think they should have the right to freedom of speech, freedom of conscience & full political freedom. Perhaps if China granted its subjects these rights Tibetans would not be so desperate to be free of Chinese rule.

__________________
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

ying

I understood what you said in your last post though English is not my mother language. I knew your actual meaning is to argue why Chinese dosent let Tibetan go. But I still feel uncomfortable with those words, like greedy. This is why I asked you to stop using those words.

Personally, I admire and respect Tibetan.

Ray

Everybody in China are not Han.

And even those who claim they are Han are not Han.

However here a bit on the Han Dynasty:

Han Dynasty

The Han empire began in 206 B.C. when Liu Bang, prince of Han, defeated the Qin army in the valley of Wei. The defeat was part of a larger rebellion that began after the First Emporer's death. The people were dissatisfied with the tyranny of the Qin leaders and their Legalist form of government. However, while traditional Chinese history portrays the Han as implementing immediate changes in government, evidence shows the Han continued to rule in the tradition of the Qin, and only gradually incorporated Confucian ideals into their Legalist form of government. Economic expansion, changing relationships with the people of the steppes, strengthening of the palace at the expense of the civil service, weakening of the state's hold on the peasantry, and the rise of the families of the rich and the gentry were all factors that led to the adoption of Confucian ideals..

Under this new form of Legalism and Confucianism, rewards and punishments were still used for common people. However, the administrators were judged based on Confucian principles with the justification for these different sets of standards as they were educated. As a last resort, the ruler could use punishment for both the people and the officials. It was believed that force alone was not a sufficient way to rule and so the emperor needed the help of the Confucianists to guide him morally. Evidence of rulers using their power to punish is found in the records of officials who were beheaded.

When Liu Bang conquered the Qin, he created his capital at Ch'ang-an. He kept most of the laws and regulations by the Qin and made many of his friends nobility and gave them fiefs. However, the land was still divided up into commanderies and prefectures. Even the fiefs given out were treated like commanderies. Han power was based on direct control of people by the state.

Like the Qin before them, the main goal of the Han was the unification of China. This goal led to the eventual breakup of the fiefs and the downfall of the imperial nobility. This process was finally complete during Wu Ti's reign (141-87 B.C.) His reign was a period of great military expansion. He expanded the borders into Vietnam and Korea and pushed the Hsiung nu south of the Gobi. Wu Ti transplanted an estimated 2 million people to the northwestern region in order to colonize these areas.

The expansion also led to trade with the people of inner Asia. Thereafter, the Silk Road was developed. The Silk Road actually consisted of more than one possible route through the mountains that the traders followed. Agriculture grew with the development of better tools. Iron tools were made of better quality, and oxen drawn ploughs were commonly used. Irrigation systems were increased to help develop the areas of North China. Crop rotation was also practiced from 85 B.C. onwards. The state attempted to monopolize the production of iron and salt, which were the two biggest sectors of the economy, but succeeded for less than a century. Silk weaving and copper work were also important activities.

Education became more important during this period, as a new class of gentry was introduced. A result of this was the compilation of many encyclopedias. The best known is the Book of the Mountains and Seas, which contained everything known at the time about geography, natural philosophy, the animal and plant world, and popular myths. Sima Qian, considered to be China's greatest historian wrote his famous Records of the Historian (Shiji) during this time. This history book became the model by which all other histories would follow. It was one of the first attempts in China to make a record of the past in a proper form.

The Han Dynasty is actually two separate dynasties. It is considered one dynasty by the Chinese because the second dynasty was founded by a member of the former Han dynasty who declared he had restored the Han Dynasty. The original Han Dynasty was overthrown when the wealthy families gained more power than the emperor. The families became allied with each other through marriages and were responsible for the selection of officials. The widow of the emperor Yüan Ti succeeded in placing all of her relatives in government positions and ruling in place of her son. Her nephew, Wang Mang eventually declared himself emperor of a new dynasty, the Hsing (New). His rise to emperor is unusual because he gained much public support on his rise and he began a ceremony in which a seal of precious stone was passed to the emperor. From then on, whoever held this seal was the official emperor. Wang Mang was overthrown by a secret society of peasants known as the Red Eyebrows, because they painted their eyebrows red. The descendents of the Han dynasty eventually joined in the uprising, and, it was the armies of these nobles, under the leadership of Liu Hsiu, who killed Wang Mang in 22A.D. The fighting continued until 25 A.D., when Liu Hsiu became the emperor. As an emperor he was called Kuang-wu Ti. Millions of people died during the fighting, leaving land for the peasants, and often, the freedom of debt as the lenders had died.

The second Han Dynasty had much success with their foreign policy. Part of this success was due more to luck than to anything the Han did. The Hsiung nu who had previously been one of the most dangerous enemies of the Chinese were defeated by the Hsien-pi and the Wu-huan. Half of the Hsiung nu moved south, and became part of the Chinese empire. The Hsiung nu appeared to be trying to reunite and form a large empire comprising all of Turkestan. Thus, in 73 A.D. the Chinese began a campaign in Turkestan. The whole of Turkestan was quickly conquered which would have ensured a trading monopoly, however, the emperor Ming Ti died and Chang Ti became emperor. He favored an isolationist policy so that much of what was gained in Turkestan was now lost. Pan Ch'ao, the deputy commander who had led the invasion, stayed in Turkestan to try and hold onto what had been won, and eventually in 89 A.D. a new emperor came to power with a renewed interest in holding Turkestan. Despite this military success, economic and political struggles arose within China. Internal struggles for power taxed the peasants, until in 184 A.D. when another peasant uprising occurred. This movement was begun by the Yellow Turbans. This uprising served to unite the factions who had previously been fighting one another because they needed to unite to defeat the Yellow Turbans. Despite conquering them, China did not return to a united state. Rather, three kingdoms emerged and the Han dynasty came to an end.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Bigfella

Then let them govern their own society. Anything less is not respect or admiration, it is repression.

ying

No objection. Tibetan deserves freedom. But being the nation has so close relation with Tibet, China have to consider further. If the independence will not give birth to a prospective, democratic and civilized Tibet, and on the contrary, will bring riot, civil war, and economic depression to Tibet, it will not only be the trouble of Tibet but also big trouble to China. I have said, a rich and prospective Tibet will do a lot good to China.

How about it is almost certain that independence will establish a religious theocracy? Dose Dalai Lama make any promise or plan to carry out religion reform in Tibet? For instance, dose Dalai agree to discourage Tibetan to donate all their savings to temples so that Tibet government may collect tax from Tibetan? If you have ever been to Tibet, you will find how splendid the temples are while how poor ordinary Tibetan are. Even nowadays, although the annual income of the Tibetan living in pasturing area are much higher than some Han areas, they still lack of money to establish and run public facilities since temples are collecting moneys from Tibetan. Meanwhile, dose Dalai agree to keep monks away from politics? The ordinary Tibetan trust their monks so much and will definitely vote or against whatever issues according to the instruction of monks. In other words, dose Dalai agree to take away the privileges monks have in order to establish a modern country? If Dalai agree to do so, is his promise appropriately and fully explained to the monks who are following him and those who are urging Dalai's return in Tibet? Do those monks agree to be "pure monks" ?

Dalai left Tibet 50 years ago. Dose he really understand what's going on in Tibet? How will he deal with the young generation of Tibet, the Han and Muslim living in Tibet? How will he handle the relation with China?

Dalai Lama is always say I request blablabal..., but he should consider more what he may do for Tibet and China except the propaganda of freedom. And personally, I dont think Dalai is brave enough to accept the religion reform. And he is too old to understand the capitalism challenge Tibet is facing.

Nauticus

Ray

Bigfella,

It is true that English is a foreign language for me!

Hard work and perseverance and a real English English teacher has helped me to understand a wee bit of this language.

But then as some Englishman here said, my English is BBC of 1950s!

Ray

Absolutely spot on!

My computer does not have links.

I pick these gems as I go along and save!

troung

China demands apology from Cafferty

* Story Highlights
* Cafferty said Chinese are "goons and thugs" and products are "junk"
* China says Cafferty violated the ethics of journalism
* CNN says he was offering opinion about Chinese government, not its people
* Online petition says remarks were "racist" and "despicable"
* Next Article in World »

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(CNN) -- The Chinese Foreign Ministry demanded Tuesday that CNN's Jack Cafferty apologize for remarks he made last week, in which he called the Chinese "goons and thugs" and said products manufactured in China are "junk."

"Cafferty used the microphone in his hands to slander China and the Chinese people (and) seriously violated professional ethics of journalism and human conscience," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said Tuesday, according to China's state-run Xinhua news agency.

She said Cafferty's remarks "reflected his arrogance, ignorance and hostility towards the Chinese people, ignited indignation of Chinese (at) home and abroad and will be condemned by those who safeguard justice around the world."

CNN issued a statement saying, "It was not Mr. Cafferty's nor CNN's intent to cause offense to the Chinese people, and [CNN] would apologize to anyone who has interpreted the comments in this way."

In its statement issued Tuesday, CNN said Cafferty was offering his "strongly held" opinion of the Chinese government, not China's people, adding that he clarified the point Monday.

The network noted that "over many years, Jack Cafferty has expressed critical comments on many governments, including the U.S. government and its leaders."

Cafferty, who appears daily on CNN's "The Situation Room," made the remarks April 9 as host Wolf Blitzer was comparing today's China to that of 20 or 30 years ago.

"I don't know if China is any different, but our relationship with China is certainly different," Cafferty said. "We're in hock to the Chinese up to our eyeballs because of the war in Iraq, for one thing. They're holding hundreds of billions of dollars worth of our paper. We are also running hundreds of billions of dollars' worth of trade deficits with them, as we continue to import their junk with the lead paint on them and the poisoned pet food and export, you know, jobs to places where you can pay workers a dollar a month to turn out the stuff that we're buying from Wal-Mart.

"So I think our relationship with China has certainly changed," he said. "I think they're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they've been for the last 50 years."

He issued a clarification of his remarks on Monday's "Situation Room," saying that by "goons and thugs," he meant the Chinese government, not the Chinese people. It was unclear whether China's Foreign Ministry was aware of the clarification when it held the Tuesday news conference.

In the days following his remarks, however, the Legal Immigrant Association launched an online petition condemning his statements as "racist" and "despicable" and demanding that CNN discipline Cafferty and apologize to the Chinese people. Nearly 45,000 people had signed it as of Tuesday afternoon.

In the petition, the association describes itself as "a leading organization of legal immigrants mainly comprised of people from China." According to its Web site, the nonprofit group is based in Santa Clara, California, and was founded in 2007 as an organization "dedicated to the social well-being of employment-based immigrant professionals."

The state-run English-language newspaper China Daily also said in an editorial Tuesday that an apology is called for, calling Cafferty "pathetic" and noting, "it is rare for the world audience to hear such a blatant discrimination against an ethnic group of people with such a derogatory connotation."

Others angered by Cafferty's remarks were urging a boycott of CNN's advertisers.

CNN said Tuesday that it is "a network that reports the news in an objective and balanced fashion. However, as part of our coverage, we also employ commentators who provide robust opinions that generate debate." E-mail to a friend E-mail to a friend

All About China • Jack Cafferty

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But the CCP are Goons and Thugs and Chinese products are deadly junk. Fail to see the issue here.

__________________
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

citanon

And this is news???

citanon

Actually, I believe the correct method is to start eating the fish yourself. Then the man will suddenly discover fishing on his own, angrily berate you for taking his fish, and ask for reparations, with interest, of lost fishery income.

locksun1

I'm a Chinese American living in Beijing working for a multinational company. Born and raised in NYC, I have been living in Beijing and seeing a totally different perspective of what the western media and politicians portray.

Unless someone's actually spent time here, they will not understand China. I'm outraged by all of the comments I've heard and quite frankly embarrassed to be an American.

As Americans, we pride ourselves on being tolerant of race, gender, etc. but yet every commentary from Washington has been very close-minded and hypocratic. Every comment from the Western and China media is expected. While China wants to paint a positive picture for the people to maintain order, US media is privatized and with its primary objective to sell its story, and no doubt, what the US people want to hear and read about are negative. Americans love scandal. Take a look at the front cover of any newspaper or magazine. You will never see any story on China unless it is in a negative light. China doesn't conjure emotion for most Americans because it's so distant and different.

The comments about Communism reminds me of the textbook accounts of Hoover and McCarthy. Someone needs to explain what communism really means these days. How the Chinese view it versus what is judged from the outside are two extremely different perspectives.

Finally, what are the human rights issues? China realizes its problems with inflation and the effect it will have on the poor. It worries about pollution and modernization of infrastructure, property rights, and fighting corruption. It seeks to protect individual rights and general welfare! Now, when we talk about individual freedom, this is touchey. From the standpoint of censoring content or preventing gatherings/protests which they feel may cause political and social instability, China needs to maintain order. Try managing a country with 1.3 billiion people in a country which has large disparities between wealthy and poor, numerous dialects and ethnicities, and be sure to add in protests in over 650 cities, and see what you get.

Are you telling me that there has never been instances of police brutality in the US. It's in the NY post everyday. Are there things that the US govt hides from the people...absolutely. How have we treated muslims in the US? Why don't we have censorship in preventing children from porn, violent video games and movies? Why do we allow guns? All of this can be put into question when you look at things from the other side.

All of China's problems are no different than what exists anywhere else in the world including the US. China has not once told the US govt how it should run international and/or local matters. The "thugs and goons" that run Washington have their own political agendas and not necessarily that of the people they represent, they steal, they cheat, and do bad things. Should we label them horrible capitalists?

How does Tibet fit into the US or European agenda? Let's talk about freeing the Native Americans from their reservations, the Palestinians from Israel, and while we're at it, let's also remove Americans from Iraq.

This is all so ridiculous and it's unfortunate that in this day and age, the world still goes on like this. The effect of this propaganda will only hurt China's progress and this heroic effort by politicians to "save 1.3 billion people" will be the furthest thing from the truth. Don't forget how many people rely on China for less expensive goods.

If it's so bad or considered "junk", why do we still buy it. It's simple. People selfishly don't want to pay more. But yet, they complain about it. Living in China, I hear expats complaining all the time about how certain locals do this or that, and how inconvenient certain things are in China, about China's counterfeiting. Yet, these are the same people who have continued to live here for long periods, making money from China's economic progress, and shopping at the Silk Market for fake goods. Floating currency exchange. Bite your tongue unless you want consumers to pay more for Chinese imported goods. Americans seem to want to save the Chinese but not one American has ever been grateful of the products that have been produced for 5 rmb an hour.

Ray

Locksun,

Heard of a phrase that goes - Blood is thicker than water?

That should sum up your indignation at the world reaction to Tibet et al!!

Since you are embarrassed as an American and you love your ancestor's homeland and its political and economic philosophy, don't you think it is better to abandon such a horrid land as the US of A and settle down where your roots are?

I am sure the Americans will not miss you!!

OnlinePhuntsho

Very well said..

bolelander

I am not an American. I am truly amazed that so many people from UK and USA use this line of argument. Hopefully not the majority of the people in USA act like this.
Being embarrassed about being a citizen of a country due to certain issues happens all the time. I have met Americans tourist all over the world pretending to be Canadians. I met Australians, Japanese, Chinese, Iranians who were embarrassed of their countries at one point in life. Should they leave their country too? It is not treason. Its freedom to express your emotion. To tell them to go back to their Ancestor's country is uncalled for. Its rude and amounts to an act of bigotry. There is also suspicion of racism and elements of KKK working here. Especially so in a country that value freedom so much as USA.
I guess for some Americans, free speech is only allow when its convenient for them. When someone share different view, you ask them LEAVE the country. "If you don't share our view, LEAVE. " Thats free speech for you. Great.
Btw, why don't you give back the North America continent you stole to the natives. You should also pay the 300 years rent you own them too. I am sure they would let most Americans stay in USA and rent the land to them. Or you can go live in China if the natives don't want the likes of you. They are a tolerant people but I am not sure they would stand bigotry.

__________________
NA belongs to Natives, give it back.