ying

The problem is some want to fish while some don't and all they are Tibetan.

Even just for the charity sake, can we sit to see the dying of Tibetan children who lack the neccessary medical facilities? Can we tolerant some savage customs which may threaten the life and basic rights of ordinary Tibetan?

Even Han does't teach them, Tibetan is learning from outside world. How many western tourists come to Tibet every year? Tibetan do have newspaper and TV. They have to find their own position in this morden world.

Officer of Engineers

Then, they starve.

Charge them with child endangerment. There are basic laws that MUST be obeyed and I don't care if you're Tibetan or not.

As I stated elsewhere. There is no way of pleasing them except independence and even then, they will blame you for leaving them in this mess even though you left them a lot better than you found them.

What you can do is equality before the law.

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Chimo

toemag

I took the time to watch a few of the other clips of Jack and his stuff, he is pretty insensitive and says what some are even afraid to think.

As to the influx of Chinese posters, I hope that they are private persons who are internationally minded and have a healthy interest in world affairs.

Tony

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Yet another ex-tankie of 1 RTR origin.

ying

Totally agree. But if the expelled Tibetan read your threads and found this would be the way westerners will treat them, it’s quite possible that they will immediately change their mind and jump back the embrace of China.

Maybe this is the difference between Western and Chinese. There is a popular saying in China, Tibetan and Han is family. It seems not acceptable for Chinese to “abundant” family members. Chinese people would like to offer what we can offer and at least do something to help our brothers to improve, to grow up. I know it sounds to be stupid to westerners. But it is also incredible to Chinese that westerners may just let their family members go, like Bree in the Desperate Housewife who dumped her own son in a gas station.

Even in case Tibetan refuses to be our brother, China still concerns the fate of Tibet. A prospective and civilized Tibet will do a lot good to China. Considering the long-term interest of China, we can not leave Tibet alone and sit to see they starve!

ravi12

basically some want to coopt with the commies and some dont. The question I raise is very simple, why do you think that YOU know better than them on how to fish? Why do you think they need some one to "teach" them?

They are their own children, I can bet that 95% of parents take care of their parents than some govt sitting in the capital.

good, you have a bright future as a paid-journalist. I can clearly the subtle rendering of Tibetan customs as "savage", in turn implying as though the customs of china are "holy".

Commies are forcing the tibetans that they will teach tibetans or else. How else for the simple fact that the police in tibet go and search for DLs photos from every house, as if it was some evening stroll. They are basically saying, "You idiots, we know how to live better than you".

How about the fact that for any disturbances, the instant result is removal of all foreign tourists and journos. What does that tell you? It tells me a lot of things about the govt.

ravi12

The only problem, OOE is talking about the 5% of bad individual parents, where as you are talking about 95% - huge difference.

For the underlined part, What if the other part doesnt want your "offer" and not want to "improve".

ravi12

The problem is actually the law itself.
For example, if I pass a law "Every canadian henceforth is to be treated as a christian/muslim".
(replace canadian with chinese, christian/muslim as "han chinese")

Note that the law itself is equal, in that it is "equal" for all. But is it truly equal?
Unless one gives equal sharing in making the law itself, it can never be equal (which the chinese will never give, so basically a moot point).

Blaming and all will continue, and some of it will be legitimate too.

ying

Hard to understand your logic. Dose Tibetan needn’t to make money to raise their children, to provide oblation to temples? In order to make money, Tibetan has to learn how to “fish”. Dose it has anything to do with politics and communism? Why do you think Tibetan has only two things to do, fighting with communism or cooperate? Everyone wants to have clean water and food, do you think Tibet doesn’t deserve these?

If everybody may take care of his own children, the public medical care, charity, NGO, all of these may disappear from now on.

I am not the first-hand witness of the search you mentioned, so I can not say no or yes to your question. What I saw during my visit to Tibet in 2004, there are NO Dalai Lama pictures in a couples of temples I visited. If there is no pictures, then no need to search.

I believe the removal of all foreign tourists is just for the good of these tourists. You may find the articles written by some of them in the internet. Regarding the removal of journalists, .I have to say this is the most stupid thing our government have ever done. They are too bureaucratic to know how to handle the emergency properly.

ying

For the sake of clarification, I believe no Han think they know how to fish better than Tibetan.

The reality is the Tibetan society was based on theocracy and basically a primitive one in 1951. And at that time, China was mainly an agriculture society. Since 1980s, China began its economic and social reform and now getting more modernized and westernized day by day. Han has been experiencing big challenge of western culture and capitalism. Unfortunately, this is what Tibetan has to experience too. The traditional culture and economic structure of Tibet no longer fit the external worlds and the demand of new economy. This is not what Tibetan may choose.

For instance, I was told by me Tibetan friends that they donate almost all of their savings to temples every year and just keep the money necessary to make basic living. But this tradition has been changed by some young generation who want to buy cars or cell phone. The value system is changing in Tibet. Han didn’t teach or force them to change. It’s the capitalism making the change.

ravi12

I thought I saw a post from Belle /or someone else. He summed it up so nicely.
I was writing eons and eons of bandwidth, and he wrote it up in just one sentence
Damn, when will I learn such simple language?


Why do you think, he doesnt know how to fish? Why do you think you know a better way of how to fish? Probably he doesnt want to fish, but want to farm.

In short, why do you want to act as his big brother?

You did not see them, because they were already searched and removed.
To make sure that there are no pictures, chinese search.
China orders Tibetans 'reeducated' about Dalai Lama - Los Angeles Times
http://www.tchrd.org/publications/to..._hard-2004.pdf

good for the safety of tourists and good for any kind of coverup.

Ray

Neat!

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

ravi12

But china is hell bent on teaching the same to tibet.
So basically, you did yourselves nothing-not to speak of tibet from 1950 to 1980, i.e. 30 years.
Why do you think that Tibet wouldnt have changed over the same 30 years. It might have even exceeded japan's revival after ww-2 - "could have", might and those sort of words dont count, I agree. but to say definitely that Tibet by itself wouldnt have done it is also wrong.

For the bolded part, more than 50 years after DL was thrown out of Tibet and communist rule, I am frankly suprised to see that only the youngsters are doing it.

P.s: When will the olympics end? There will be absolutely no change in Tibet, except for we wasting bandwidth. and then tibet will go back to the chinese foot as they have been.

Ray

I think if the Tibetans are not ordered around and allowed to live their own way and with all the benefits that China has given them, then they would 'fish' quite well.

To think they are primitive, indicates a colonial and imperialist mindset.

How is it the same 'primtive' Tibetans outside Tibet are fishing rather well without anyone's help?

ying

To the legitimacy issue:

Although the human right in China is not well protected, we do have some rules to protect the basic rights of human just as same as the legislation in western. In China, you can not kill others at will but we do have exception on some minority inhabitant, such as Tibet and Xin Jiang. My driver, a very strong Tibetan, was always wearing his beautiful knife (I love the knife ). And he told me that some Tibetan tribes fight sometimes. It’s also reported that Han girls are raped in Lhasa. So I was warned no to go outside in night when I was in Tibet. What I have to tell you is that all these behaviors which definitely will be considered to be crime in whatever civilized countries are usually not prosecuted in Tibet and Xin Jiang unless the crime is too serious.

Regarding the question that Han is “holy” or not, I have to say, Han is not “holy”. But since we are majority and Chinese government may ask us to strictly comply with all laws and regulations. Han can not utilize the so called “culture defense” in China but Tibet and other minority may.

Ray

there is an English phrase - One swallow does not a summer make!

The popular saying that the Tibetan and Han is family has to be endorsed by the Tibetan to give credence to the saying.

The concept of Legalism, in short, Big Brother is Watching You does reek in your post.

But then, I also accept that Leopards cannot change their spots!