Bel

Very much a conspiracy but one I feel that may actually be true. Historically the best way to bring down Empires is from within.

The sort of attacks I see happening is as follows.

-Human induced Global warming. Using sperious Scientific evidence lay guilt upon industrialized nations in an effort to curb productivity.

-Induce ideologies that are in fact at the core Communism. Modern Western State welfare, public healthcare etc are very much Communistic in there very nature.

-Destruction of Western family values. Replaced with more and more bureaucracy/legislation. Removal of individual responsibility.

-Changing economic structure. Our Grandfathers families existed on one wage, today's require two resulting in declines in working marriages and birth rates. Workers children today are being raised by Government employees or strangers. Capitalism = evil, Socialism/liberalism = good.

-Free trade, force western companies to compete with companies operating under lower morals/laws. (virtual use of slave labour etc) resulting in loss of jobs.

-Decline in Western Nationalism.

-Guilt for being Western, other cultures are often given priority over local Western cultures.

-Decline of Christianity, rise of Atheism. (I'm an atheist myself but I recognise that the West was built largely on Christian values and morals.)

-Multicultralism. Not only allow other tribes to settle peacefully upon lands once earmarked for your children and your childrens children but also allow there cultures to overide existing ones.

-The age of man-shame. Child molestation, family violence etc. Corrosponds with the rise of feminism.

There are others and obviously I could of gone a lot more in-depth but I just wanted to get the ball rolling.
Am I paranoid? Is the decline of the West natural progression or is something more sinister involved?
Heck do you even believe that the west is declining?

dalem

Liberty is hard, life is unfair.

Most people can't handle those two facts and will flock to alternatives. The West will not last if it does not believe itself worth fighting for. When Europe ignites into civil war in a couple of decades, maybe that will be a wake-up call for America, Aussieland, and Canada. Maybe.

-dale

T_igger_cs_30

,

Never America's fault hey Dale,

__________________
FEAR NAUGHT

I don't work here ...I am an analyst!

dalem

You know my opinion on that topic.

-dale

Bel

What you are basically saying is that things have to get worse before there is a movement to make them better.

Fair enough.

Bel

Todays activists are tomorrows politicians.

NZ's current Prime Minister certainly makes this maxim ring true. What better way to spread communism and discord among your ideological enemies than to install extremist policies and politicians?

dalem

No, I'm saying that liberty is hard and life is unfair. People want to harvest the fruit of a successful life without doing the hard work of raising the crop first. Socialism/Communism and similar systems can give the appearance of cutting out the dirty fingernails part of life, but only for a short time.

And during that short time they are very seductive for the weak-willed.

-dale

Bel

Pretty hard to respect and therefor protect liberty when it has merely been handed down to you from the preceeding generation.

captain

Yep, just like the old tale that says; Grand parents work hard to build the business, their kids only just maintain the business and then grand kids throw it away.

The rise and rise of the "ME" generation who are synonomous with the "grand kids" may well mean that our societies will have to go through a cyclic low before a new generation has the will to start the hard work again as the Grand parents did.
At the moment, the "me" generation seem to be quite happy navel gazing and developing reasons why it is someone elses fault that the world is not to their liking.

Maybe it is a function of getting to my stage of life but, I do worry about my kids, my grand kids and what sort of Orwellian society they may create for themselves.

I hope they wake up but if they don't, I hope I am old smelly bones by then.

I am having a morbid moment perhaps.

Cheers.

Shek

Bel,
I think some of your observations probe in the right direction; however, some of them are misguided and so I'll concentrate on those

This conflicts with your changing economic structure bullet below.

Women entering the workforce has provided a larger labor pool to draw from, has meant a greater probability of breakthrough discoveries happening, and allowed for greater wealth accumulation. The tradeoff is that you don't have the stay at home all the time mom; however, from my experience, many moms stay at home until the kids go to school and then return to work, and so this effect is not that great. Furthermore, having kids in daycare, I have been more than pleased with the quality of care being given - i.e., the kids are given just as good of care as they would have recieved at home, except now when mom comes home, she's able to give better care for the late afternoon through bedtime than if she had been worn down all day by the kids.

The statistics tell a different story - more jobs, more productivity, more wealth due to freer trade. Western economies' paths to growth were through both slave labor and the virtual use of slave labor. Working conditions improve once folks get wealthier and then the choice is no longer between work at a factory and survive or work your own land and hopefully you can survive; instead, the choice becomes work less hours in less than optimal conditions or demand better work conditions and the resulting slight pay cut.

Not sure about the linkage to feminism, but I'd argue that this has always existed. The difference is that it is now reported, it is now prosecuted, and it gets press and so public awareness of it being a widespread problem is greater (as opposed to it being just the black sheep family that lives on the edge of town that does it).

I think it's a valid question; however, I think that there is a temporal quality to the question. For example, immigration and its impact on American culture is a huge issue right now. However, American culture has always been a melting pot, and thus, it is a shifting cultural landscape. Thus, how does one truly argue that a shifting cultural landscape in America is a bad thing since that is the American experience? I think it can be done, but I see many folks argue that change is bad prima faccia without really digging beneath the surface and demonstrating fundamental changes in core American values that have remained true throughout our history despite the shifting cultural landscape at the surface.

__________________
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

Triple C

Amen!

Freedom has lasting appeal to people that know oppression.

__________________
What benefits the body is called medicine; what benefits the soul, discipline.
-Augustine of Hippo

rj1

India and China are in far worse shape than the West cause the West actually cared about the environment, so I'll give grudging respect to the tree huggers in that respect. Go take a trip to Bangalore or Beijing, it's disgusting.

Not communistic, just centralized and government is becoming more and more responsible for everything. The conservatives in America are becoming more fascist and the liberals in America are becoming more socialist. I have little sympathy for people that rue this, cause they're the bastards that vote and they accept the partisan hackery that is spouted out by the politicians they support. You reap what you sow.

You cannot in one point go glum about our country being more government-controlled and in the next go glum about the destruction of family values. Family values are instilled by FAMILY, not government. So if you have an issue with that on kids you see, take it up with their parents. If your kids grow up terrible, it's your fault cause you were their mother or father and you were responsible for bringing them up right. School and culture are secondary influences to the influence parents should have.

Certain forms of capitalism and socialism are evil, and certain forms of capitalism and socialism are good. I always at the end of the day believe we are responsible for their own fates. While it's true it seems that more people work today to be stuck in place as opposed to moving up the social ladder, that's just how the world works.

What's going on is a kind of global arbitrage. As wages here go down, wages in India or China for example (are supposed to) go up. As the world is becoming more mechanized, you need less people to do the same production. It's just how it is.

Looking around me I disagree. It goes in cycles, sometimes the left goes up and the right goes down, and then in the next cycle that reverses itself.

Who's guilty? I have Chinese and Vietnamese friends and I work with Japanese and Indians in my job and I respect all of them and I've taken a liking to soccer and rugby, but at the end of the day I still prefer barbecue and fried chicken and watch auto racing and basketball. Knowing of other people's existance and respecting them is not guilt or giving them priority.

Again, go blame parents. Although when I was in college, I can tell you a lot of Christians there that were raised atheist or agnostic.

What are we supposed to do, go Slobodan Milosevic on them? I agree that it pisses me off that damn Yankees are moving down from the Northeast and I have to put up with them raising my taxes to account for them coming here and seeing the Red Sox bumper sticker on their car, but again, they bought the property and that's it.

Dude, seriously.

Partly. You raise some good points I'll admit. But you completely ignore the most vital point: that our country lives beyond its means with the money it has and the long-term consequences of that. There's no greater future potential knife to our heart and Britain's than that.

It's natural. Remember a thing called the British Empire?

Was the United States surpassing it in the early-to-mid-20th century sinister on America's part?

No. Just the East is becoming relevant for the first time since before colonialism.

dalem

I'll bet you a pizza that in, oh, 25 years, when China and India are through the dirtiest of their industrial phase, they will impose draconian laws to clean, save and protect their environments.

They will do so at all because anyone who can afford it prefers clean air and water and a nice garden to walk in.

They will do so draconianally, much moreso China, because they will be less inherently friendly to market forces and peoples' choices. Like California is now.

-dale

rj1

I'd rather share the pizza in 25 years cause I agree with you entirely.

Bel

-In my experience, Male violence results in statistics (disparity in strength). Female violence are nearly always un-reported. (how do you report emotional scaring and small bruises) How certain are politicians really that the bulk of family abuse is male generated?
Age of man-shame.

-Some few males are pedofiles.(sp?) All males are considered suspect around young females, including fathers just hugging there daughters
Age of man-shame.

-Disgruntled/jilted Ex-wife claims ex-husband is a kiddie fiddler. Instant guilt results in banning from child visitation rights untill the husband proves himself innocent.
Age of man shame.

-Courts do still favour woman in custody battles.
Age of man shame.

-Domestic purposes benefit undercuts Males biological need to provide, government welfare replaces the need for men beyond sperm providing.
-Age of man-shame.

I think all these undermine a Fathers role in a family which I believe will result in a community filled with ever more disfunctional children. Its all about playing the odds and having both a father and mother in the same home is the ideal enviroment for children to be raised in.

In New Zealand, 50% of primary school children now no longer have there fathers living at home with them.
Age of man shame. (For this one we have a damn good reason to be ashamed IMHO)