brokensickle

...said. Your peaching to the chior and I love the sound! And there have been better ages IMHO. But what matters most is that we idealize what we know is right.




Ivan




Ivan

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"Evil opposes freedom and uses those who pervert it as pawns to destroy it."

brokensickle

I'll do that.




Ivan

brokensickle

He's a (Smart Feller) with the s> and <f.

And did I say I think he writes real well?

Well, he writes real well. There said it.

I got'ta be able to find sumthang gud bout him. And my momma always sed if ya cain't find sumethang gud bout someone, make sumthang up. She also sed neeveer lie. Hmmm?

If I can't be a troll then I'm going to be a michievious little leprechaun. I've a green hat.


Ivan the Irascible

Bigfella

Not strine Pari. Stole it from Donnie Brasco (pre-sopranos).

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Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

Bigfella

Not bravado Dale, just weariness.

You posed a question better suited to my 11 year old niece than a grown man. If I thought that was all you were capable of I would probably just have ignored it, but that fact that you can do better makes me wonder why you don't. Trolling seemed as good an explanation as any.

If this is the standard of discussion you plan to engage in then ignore me by all means, no loss.

I have posted a grownup question in response to yours. It still stands. I am still quite happy to engage in a debate on its premises.

Bigfella

Outstanding post Pari. Thank you for opening up a little corner of your life to us.

Unfortunately my grandfather was also abusive to my Grandmother & my father on occasion. He was a good man, but one unable to deal with some of the stresses of life without resort to drink & violence. His behaviour drove a wedge between he & my father that was only finally resolved in the months before his death. Bloody tragedy.

It is uncommon to find many men in Western societies who still think it is OK to hit their wives (including some who do it anyway). That is progress. What is taking longer to weed out is the attitudes about manhood that underly the resort to violence. The problem is the idea that manhood is about strength & power; about men being 'in charge'; about men being 'tough'. Physical strength & endurance are fine qualities, but they don't define a gender (if they did, I'd be handing leadership to the gender that gives birth, not the one that watches ). Independence can be crucial at times, but overdone it risks isolation. Mental toughness is sometimes necessary, but it can easily tip over into a refusal to deal with problems.

The fact of the matter is that women are not going to return to a subordinate role in society. The young women I talk to & work with simply take for granted that they are in every way equal to men. They assume the rights that a generation ago were still being debated. The idea that there is some 'natural' division of labor whereby men work outside the home & women inside it is dead. Some couples may indeed decide to do this, but increasingly it is a conscious decision, not an assumption of roles.

These changes are only a threat to a definition of 'manhood' based on men being dominant. Indeed, I see a lot more good than bad. The responsibility for financially supporting the household is no longer soley on the shoulders of men. It is virtually assumed now that men of my age & younger will actively participate in all aspects of their children's upbringing. Most men now change more nappies in the first month of fatherhood than either of my grandfathers did in a lifetime (I recall one member of this board who is in the military describing it as 'my battlespace' ). Being a 'provider' is no longer enough, and that is a good thing. Men are also being encouraged to deal with theior problems rather than just bottle them up. All good.

None of this is easy, none of this is simple & it is still very fluid. In practical terms society is yet to fully accept that men have (or perhaps even should have) an equal role in parenting. Women, even working wmen, still do a disproportionate share of homemaking. Women are still not equally represented in corporate or public life. Most major religions still sanction discrimination against women in some form.

I think there is room for a 'men's movement'. Indeed, I think it is vital. Unfortunately the movements that have thus far taken that title have too often been directed at fighting the advances made by women, as if somehow this is all a zero-sum game. The more valuable ones have aimed at reinforcing men's need to be responsibe to & for themselves. Ideally men's movements should be campaigning with women, not against them. I would love to see men lobbying for paternity leave & at work childcare. I would love to see them push for more flexible workplaces that make it possible for two parents to work without having to leave their children permanetly in childcare (I have no problem with quality childcare, just with children spending most of their waking week in it - something no parent wants).

I remain incredibly optimistic about the future of gender relations in the West. We have abandoned a set of relationships that did us all more harm than good. Most of us have realised that the comfortable familiarity of those times was self-defeating. We haven't yet reached the other shore, but I think we are all rapidly acquiring the skills to get us there. The new world will will be a great deal better than the old, trust me.

Bigfella

Care to elaborate? Try to limit it to the major topics on this thread.

dalem

Weariness, high expectations, whatever, doesn't excuse abject rudeness. But to each his own I guess.

You've taken the position that it is perfectly acceptable to gouge men a little because they've gouged others a lot. I asked then if you thought two wrongs could make a right, and while you may have been wearied by that question you certainly weren't engaged by it. Your reply implying a little bad is sometimes necessary for a greater good assumes that the little bad is, in fact, necessary.

Instead of playground insult games (which I love in other contexts, by the way), I'll simply point out that your assumption is false and your little "question for an answer" not at all clever.

Granting that men as a generic group have held power in Western society for thousands of years, and have used that power variously to inflict what today are perceived as injustices upon women (for instance), that reality can be adjusted without "unjust" repercussion. When such things are not done that way in other walks of life it is usually taken to be low behavior, if not strictly illegal.

In short, much like the economic pie can be grown for all without shrinking pieces for some, injustices toward women can be corrected without installing fresh injustices for men, and therefore should be. That is a little different from your "we had to bomb the restaurant to try and get Saddam" answer.

-dale

T_igger_cs_30

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FEAR NAUGHT

I don't work here ...I am an analyst!

brokensickle

Pretty well self explanitory. Did I tell you you write well? You write well.





Navi

dark-alias

The west is most certainly under attack. Most of the west sits up a little higher at the table and therefore feels obligated to appease the shortcomings of the rest of the world. Its hard to feel nationalistict when the rest of the world makes it seem like you murdered, raped, and pilliaged your way to the top. Weak minds will surely weaken and cause a slight crumble, but it is those few, strong individuals that will band together to save what was so needed for this world to take a path in the right direction.

Thankyou bel for raising that ?. People sometimes forget how barbaric the world can be with modern tech. and quality of life, and the civility of the western world. We have almost fallen into a soft cushion of liberty, yet surronded by starving dogs ready to break away from their chain and eat what we have created up.

7thsfsniper

Dark, welcome to the WAB. Its funny, while reading your post I thought "this guy sounds military" before ever viewing your profile. I am realizing there is hints to a persons background in some of the simplest of statements. Its especially easy to spot the former (and current)militarys.

Now, I have found the perception you describe above around the world. Makes it hard to do the job I used to have, but we perservered and eventually accomplished the mission. What disgusts me is when Americans spout that same crap at a protest and tell others how awful it is and how ashamed they are to live in such a country. Then they hit the drive thru in thier quiet air conditioned nice car, on the way to thier air conditioned, indoor plumbed, carpeted house, in the neighborhood protected by a slurry of police, firemen, and paramedics. Plop down on thier cushy couch, turn on Mtv and fire up a doobie, while still *****in about the MAN! I can't even put into words the disgust and contempt I feel for these worthless, morons.

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Don't run, you'll only die tired!

dark-alias

Well you will be pleased to know that the 7th is doing just fine. I had a nice little visit with them this month, oh about 14 days. In three months they head out for another 3 in OEF sector.

Bigfella

[quote=dalem;475169]So, there's no excuse for rudeness. Sounds god to me. I assume you will take the same attitude to your good friend Blues next time he is rude to someone.

One of the reasons I refused to engage the question was that it seemed to reflect a misunderstanding of my position. I was right. I think that it is impossible to make dramatic, society-transforming changes without someone feeling hurt by it. There will always be people who benefitted from existing arrangements. Others are simply comfortable with them. We can & should attempt to minimize their discomfort, but that may simply be unavoidable.


Your original question didn't deserve a response as it was Dale.

Correct. Of course, different people may argue over what is 'unjust', but the principle is precisely what I advocate. Taking this example there are & were men who enjoyed being in that position of power. If it is the loss of that power that causes them hurt, is that an acceptable price to pay for undoing what I think we can agree is a greater injustice to women?

Again this is a debate over definition, not principle. What qualifies as an 'injustice' to men in this context? I was talking about bruised egos, not killing innocent civilians.

There is a subtext in your posts that I am somehow looking to punish men or seek reveng for past injustice. If you think this, you are wrong.

Parihaka

Jesus wept man, you're going to be enrolling me for man-hug classes next.