Bluesman

You could tell that communism doesn't work just from one simple fact: Cuba couldn't even grow SUGAR anymore, and that's dam' near the only thing they've got! It's a ramshackle place with everything falling apart, just like ANY non-free and centrally-planned economic system run on lunatic theory and madhouse principle.

Well, Raul has already decided that $20 a month is note enough to live on.[/quote]
Exactly; HE DECIDED. But I bet HE doesn't miss any meals, does he?

Tell ya, Ben: me and you oughta head down there as soon as the commies get swept away, buy up some beachfront, and open the coolest tiki bar and resort condo in the Caribbean. I'd never come back.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

rj1

First off, I'm glad to have found a place on the internet solely devoted to geopolitics.

Second, nepotism occurs in every society in the world. Heck, the best country in the world that promotes democracy the most might be ruled by only two families for 28 consecutive years. That's not exactly out of place with passing power through families such as was done in medieval times. And then there's the governors and congressmen who resign from their positions and their sons or daughters get appointed to take their place (Murkowski in Alaska being the most glaringly wrong).

And because of that, Cuba had to open themselves up to foreign investment, which has been capitalized on by the Canadians. I remember a couple years ago there was oil discovered there which I think the Canadians got the contract for, and the American oil companies stomped up and down for any congressman that would listen that this embargo was hurting them. :D

Cuba in reality is not as much communist as they were, just like China. They are politically communist but economically they're just "socialists" now. If you don't understand my point, the biggest proof there is that "capitalism won" is China currently with their "state-controlled capitalism" model, and Cuba to a lesser extent. I believe they have something like 3% GDP growth year-over-year, better than most countries in the rest of the world, and it is due to this foreign investment and increases in businesses such as tourism.

I've never understood how any administration can ever claim a moral high ground as the reason for our embargo with Cuba when we have normal relations with China, which leads me to think the only reason the embargo still exists is politics: Cuban exiles live in big numbers in Florida, Cuban exiles hate Castro and his government, and Florida is a toss-up state in general elections.

Elbmek

Ok fairy snuff, maybe it was the way it was written, maybe the way it was read by me - dangerous is the written word!! Apologies.

Yes, I wanted to know about Cuba over the past 50 years, as I really have paid no attention to it.

Who is suzie !! ?

__________________
Never lie, then you have nothing to try and remember.

Bluesman

Two things:

1) Americans CHOSE who got the office. Castro did it all by himself. I'm sure you can see the difference.

And 2) just who the hell might YOU be?

Just like joining any other on-going conversation that you'd like to be a part of, we kind of expect you to follow the usual rules of decorum and social norms. We like for a person that joins us to stop by the 'Intro' forum and use it for its intended purpose, before jumping right in. We'd prefer to know who you are, and why we should give a dam' just WHAT you think.

Bluesman

Somebody who gets their feelings hurt easily.

Elbmek

no, just misreading text

Elbmek

rj1 your message might have been deleted but it still went out ...............

marklv

Bottom line: Communism doesn't work. It has never had done and never will do. And the most awful atrocities ever committed took place in the name of Communism. I don't believe Castro is a naturally evil man, because he always meant well, but he is certainly a muddle headed demagogue who still thinks that Marxism can be made to work. Now that he is gone from office, and will soon die, I am pretty sure things will change. Whoever takes over will not have his charisma and base of support. Give it a few more years and Cuba will move away from Communism.

Mobbme

Castro's resignation won't change U.S. policy, official says - CNN.com

I doubt that. He will transfer his power to his brother. I know he sees democracy as a good change, but he will not allow it until he dies. He started this commi crap, and he will live by it to keep his legacy.

I've been to cuba before. The cubans LOVE Castro. His pictures were everywhere, along with Che's. Average Cubans say "We don't like america, but we love their money"

SGM

NEVER .....trust these animals.....NEVER. I was almost in the INVASION of CUBA -- supposedly to help FIDEL.. But, I had to report back to my ship in the US NAVY.. Friends of mine from Boston and NYC went down there .. That piece of **** JFK backed off with his help and allowed those men to be slaughtered.. Some of my good friends were murdered... Some were wounded.. Donald Soldini ...you here ??!! He was shot---and the CUBANS would not treat him.. A Priest from NYC got Donald and several other guys out...one was a NYC Fireman--shot real bad..\
The CUBANS -- would take men out to be shot.... But - just before they were put on the wall..a guy would take their blood..?/ What a bunch of basturds.... No -- never trust a CUBAN.. The brother is worse... Kill him !! I hope someone does....

bodie

I leave you with extracts of the most recent email from my daughter, crrently traveling in Cuba:

Allo My Most Missed friends!

I have to send this TODAY however disjointed it might be - today is the day Fidel officially stepped down as president of Cuba AND I feel compelled (before Bush and his funny Miami sidekicks says anything else completely ungrounded and biased about Cuba) to tell you how I feel about the place...

There is something curious and addictive about Cuba. Even people just passing through seem afflicted by a rhythmic madness that in one hand
charms observers, and on the other hand baffles them. This is in
summary why I loved Cuba…


The one thing you can't escape in Cuba is the music. Whether you are
being swindled in the chaotic side streets of Havana, dancing in the
streets of Santiago or getting lost in the unexpected beauty of
Guantanamo, the music follows you with a strange enchanting urgency,
pushing you to live, despite anything else. The sounds stick in your
head like microwaved bubblegum sticks in your hair; it is persistent
and difficult to get rid of. This inescapable energy forced me to
think about myself, who I am and what I value


Partially due to other tales of the greatness of this place, Sabine and I headed
off to Baracoa, in Guantanamo province and I was quite amazed when I came
out of my haze to see the town's beauty and its perfect location,
teetering on edge the Caribbean. HAPPINESS!

At some point we were buying 15cent government subsidized pizzas.

We cycled 20km to the River Toa which was gorgeous but
quite well known, so Ms Claudine suggested we go off the beaten track
and so we bushwhacked on bike for about an hour and discovered an
idyllic river in the jungle where we chilled, completely deserted and
untouched! Magic!



The next morning we opted to explore the outskirts of Baracoa on Bike at a mild pace… until we reached a little lake that had the ricketiest bridge I have ever seen crossing over it. We had come so far (I felt like I had just crossed the Sahara, unprepared and totally unfit with a slight hangover) that it seemed worth attempting to cross this strange structure. Many embarrassing pictures later and a few close calls, some local men thankfully took it upon
themselves to end our misery and to carry our bikes across the bridge…
Such chivalry ;D We safely reached the other side, bicycles intact and
cameras dry, to discover a cute small village with lots of piglets running about. Apparently this village is the spot where adventurers set off from to see where Christopher Columbus landed in the New World for the first time.

We decided to continue on directionless path and happily so. We discovered a beach after seriously bushwhacking and carrying our bicycle over rocks (little mountains) and through bushes.

We pretty much fell over on this little, teeny beach and fell asleep.
I was woken up by what I can only call my South African crime
conditioning, fearful I had been robbed. I hadn't but I was then left
wondering if I can ever really get past the fear I fear is now part of
my psychological make-up.

THEN! Out of nowhere a man appeared! MORE South African induced fear
for a moment… BUT THEN I noticed that he had… COCONUTS!!! Suddenly
this man had potential! I offered him a CUC (a dollar) and he cracked
one open for me and LUNCH appeared! HAPPINESS! Then he knocked open
another yellow one and I had water!!! With all this knocking Sabine
woke up and ordered a few more and we were sorted!

I experienced the worst customer service I have ever encountered (a hotel receptionist who initially insisted on checking us in for 2 days, then told us they were full the next day and insisted we stay with his friends AND then
couldn't tell us when they had space again. All he had to do was open
a book!)


It was one of the nicest hikes I have ever done prominently because our guide seemed so open to my interrogation-like questions and resolved for me a few things that was really fuzzy about Cuba (like do people have to work, how are houses allocated, what do Cubans feel about Fidel, The US and communism)… It was obviously a one sided response and very personal to him BUT at
least I got SOME info… I had actually given up even knowing anything!

So to sum this point, this very long point up I will quote the Beatles
(who are somehow oddly linked to Cuba too, I don't really know how
though)

"And when the night is cloudy
There is still a light that shines on me
Shine on until tomorrow, let it be
I wake up to the sound of music
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be"



In summary my trip to Cuba renewed my faith in life's ability to take
care of itself - even when I have no plan, no guide and no direction.


SO That is point one – half of why I loved Cuba. Part two might be a bit more… erm… Well, you'll see… This is the stream of consciousness bit, with a slightly political edge… I'll start with a summative quote to help you maybe understand what I'm trying to get at.

Ernesto Guevara:

"Above all, always be capable of feeling deeply any injustice
committed against anyone, anywhere in the world... That is a most
beautiful quality... Be conscious..."


What frustrated me significantly in Cuba were the tourists I met who consistently felt sorry for Cubans and their "terrible situation".
These people were mostly located in all inclusive resorts – a noteworthy point which suggests to me that most of them did not even see Cuba. I really felt these people were just blindly critical of a word they had been taught to fear, Communism, and were unable to see past this word and look at some of the amazing things Cuba has achieved – they have an educated, healthy nation!

I felt safe in Cuba – something I can't say about South Africa.

How many countries can say that?

I think many of us go to Cuba with a dogmatic and closed fear of Communism, or some with an unrealistic and unfaltering faith in it.
For me Cuba wasn't communist as much at it was trying to be humanist.

I look at Guatemala, Mexico and South Africa and in comparison to Cuba
I feel sorry for those people, I feel little sympathy for Cubans.

The country has a lot to work out but the level of suffering in Cuba
(Ignoring the suffering at Guantanamo Bay) is negligible in comparison
to many non-communist countries.

Why do world leaders who are overtly aware of other shocking human atrocities bother to care about Cuba?

Why are the US presidential candidates even mentioning Fidel in their
campaigning?
It makes no sense!
The world should focus on love not hate, peace not war BUT everyone looks at Cuba with military intent and a pressing need to see change but it makes no sense, other places need more change - South Africa needs more change...

I can forward her email (it's a long one :-) ) in it's entirety to whomever wants it.

Regards and apologies to those whose (if any) sensibilities I might have offended with my daughters travelogue.

Bodie (currently in Cape Town, South Africa)

bodie

And just to put things into perspective, I actually FOUGHT Cubans in Angola so I had little liking for them as a nation, based on the Rooi-Gevaar (Red Peril) propaganda being fed to me at the time.

I gained some respect for them as soldiers.

Bodie.

bodie

Just a thought and another extract:

Extract:
SO BACK TO CUBA! Cuba was a different system, and I can't say if it is
corrupt or not, or if it is progressive and suitable to anywhere other
than Cuba. but I can say that in general people had what they needed
and that everyone who bothered was educated, they had food, they had
heath care


Question:
CAN THE UNITED STATES SAY THE SAME?

What makes your system work any better than what the Cubans have?

Extract cont ....
(Housing was also pretty much sorted BUT there were some significant problems).

Question:
What is the percentage of homeless in the USA?


Extract cont .....
They also had a lacking obsession with work which at times drove me
quite crazy. Bus drivers stopped anywhere they needed to on route. If
they needed bananas, they stopped, if they saw a friend, they stopped,
if anyone wanted anything they stopped. The same with waiters.
Generally not the MOST efficient but also not completely useless. They
got their jobs done it seemed to me, in a way that was consistent and
integrated with life. That connection that I lost in my psycho work
mode was not lost in Cuba because work was not their primary concern;
it was a concern (They did need to work) but not an overshadowing
concern.


Statement:
So many of the Cubans choose not to subscribe to the pursuit of the buck.

Question:
Is this a reason to denigrate an entire society and way of life?

I think not.

I may agree or disagree with the way the United States is run, but have great respect for it's people.

Bodie in South Africa

junoth1001

Raul has said that there has to be changes to the system, which many people are taking as being sign that he will loosen up the regime in Cuba, but the problem is that he nt said exactly what those changes are.

Therefore, we have to wait and see what develops after Sundays meeting of the ruling committe.

gunnut

Flourish, depends on your definition. Everyone had the real basics in Cuba. Everyone had something to eat, a place to live, and free clinic. Is that utopia? If the rest of the world is starving and had nothing else to speak of, then yes, that's utopia. But the rest of the world had moved beyond that. Some more than the others.

Cuba is stuck in the 1950s standard of living. Everyone except for party bosses and tourists lives like it's 1949. That's pretty much due to our economic boycott. I hope Raul can gradually open up Cuba to the west and we can lift our embargo so the people can live better lives.

Cuba has everything needed to be successful. Before Castro, Cuba enjoyed comparable living standards as continental US. Today Cuba still enjoys comparable living standards as 1950s continental US.

__________________
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.