cuba

Aye, me too. My friends keep telling me that you've got to watch Firefly first before you watch the movie.

Sorry, a little off topic.

Tronic

Chiron, the problem here is that geopolitics is not about 2 colours anymore; Cold War is long over. Nevertheless;

The only reason India's arms are 70% Russian are because of the Cold War relationship. The Cold war is now over. Israel has already become India's # 2 supplier of military equipment and America is also fast climbing up on that list. For India, it has now become a matter of who can supply it the best equipment for its needs; as every major weapons deals India now signs are the conditions that 1.) the technology will be transfered to India, and 2.) the weapon systems will be produced in India. And ideologically, how is India leaning East or West? We have maintained neutrality throughout, and even during the Cold War when India signed a treaty of friendship with the Soviets in '71; the Soviets were not allowed to establish a single base in India. And wherever our troops have gone to serve overseas it has been under the UN; with the exception of the Sri Lanka campaign.

Naturally the nukes will deter any agressor; point was the reason of their development. China.

So how does India-Pakistan stand-off turn into a East-West stand-off exactly? Maybe in 1971, but the world is different now! Point to be noted here is that it was actually Israel which came to India to ask for bases so it could bomb Pakistani nuclear facilities.

That is because neither India nor China have their armies facing eye to eye like India and Pakistan. But the border control forces that are posted at the India-China border are manifesting into political tensions.

Pakistan is fine as it is; it is a Western ally and hence its blue colour is a-ok.

Here are some facts for you:

-India has no interest whatsoever to join SCO, it is only an observer on Russia's insistence of having some sort of an Eastern alliance. The last thing India wants is to get into an alliance with China and Pakistan (also an observer state of SCO and will join on China's backing if India joins); two of India's adversaries.

-Ongoing military tensions with Pakistan on Kashmir? And that statement you labelled red. Now heres another fact; in the recent Kargil War in Kashmir; the Europeans and the Americans both backed India over Pakistan.

-70% of Indian weapons are Russian; because of the Cold War. Take a look at all the new weapons procurements, billions worth have started arriving from the US also. Even one of the largest aircraft deals of the Su-30MKIs are actually a hybrid of Russian and Western technology; with Israel providing a good deal of components for the plane.

-And now tell me, why does America's major non-NATO ally Pakistan not have access to the American technologies that India does?

__________________
Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

lwarmonger

OOO!! I love rhetorical questions! ME! ME! TEACHER PICK ME!!!

FullTank

nuclear ballistic and cruise missile tech?


nuclear weapons, ballistic and cruise missile tech a worth a lot...many countries would love to pay billions for it and still not get it.

yes this statement is correct. The same way nuclear weapons of UK which are a deterrance against Russia are also a deterance against US.

Mind you deterance against some country means that country *wants* to attack you, implying US *wants* to attack India.(in which case a deterrance is not at all a bad idea be it against an enemy or an ally). The same nuclear weapons are also a detterance against Russia for India.


Ok few more questions to you....In 50-75 years when Saudi's oil does dry up or we find an alternate source of energy do you believe it will still be a US ally?


Did you think Vietnam would be US ally a few decades back?


Did you think that the west funded islamic warriors that fought against Russia is today the greatest threat to the west. And have little beef with Russia today?


In 42 could you percieve that US and Germany will be part of one defense block?

After pearl harbour, did u percieve that US and Japan will be close allies?


Did u percieve in 71 after receiving support from India, today bangladesh will be biting back?


I think we cannot use the past and some obscure analysis to arrive at a black-white picture...or in this case red & blue.

The best color u can give for India imo is light saffron with green, blue and red patches.

Chiron

If more than 5 colours were used in this analysis then the map would lose its meaning. I agree that some countries' status is not as clear-cut by using this system, such as India, but overall most countries are represented quite accurately.

Most people think that the Cold war ended, in reality only the rhetoric of the politicians has changed and some alliances have shifted, but the geopolitical struggle for world dominance has never ended. There are still two dominant geopolitical poles, the first one is the American empire and its system of alliances, the second one is the alliance of Russia and China and their close allies. India, by itself does not constitute a separate geopolitical pole, first of all because its nuclear forces are incomparable to the first two and secondly because India lacks its own independent military-industrial complex.

The Pakistani-backed insurgency in Kashmir makes it an East-West stand-off. You yourself have said that Pakistan is a Western ally. Although I concede that this is not a decisive factor and I am not using the extreme colours to represent it.

This is not a fact but your personal opinion which is based by ignoring the fact that the Sino-Indian relationship is developing very quickly.

China-India Bilateral Relationship

China, India agree to push forward strategic, cooperative partnership

Summit of representatives from India, China and Russia meeting in New Delhi


Technologies such as? The one-off nuclear deal that is still being negotiated?

Military-technical cooperation between the US and India is about ~10% that of the Russo-Indian relationship, and it is nowhere near billions. For example FY2006 US govt. authorizations for defense related commercial sales to India amounted to $140 mil. While the Russian figure is around $2 billion per annum. I don't know what the figures for Israel and France are but I'm pretty sure Russia still dominates the Indian arms market and the Russo-Indian military-technical relationship is still the deepest one that India has. Therefore it is reasonable to classify India as slightly leaning East.

Here is another factor which shows India as leaning East:
The Space Bond of the Anti-Western Alliance

So here are some counter-questions for you: If India is so neutral, why doesn't it use the European galileo for the targeting of its weapon systems or try to develop its own system? Why does India trust the Russian GLOSNASS more than the US GPS (which is currently much more comprehensive and complete)?

lwarmonger

The map has already lost its meaning. It is kind of pointless to try and portray things in a Cold War style anymore

If you are talking about nuclear weapons, only the US and Russia are in that club. If you are talking about military-industrial complexes then a lot of nations (like Iran and Israel and many others) are in it as a separate entity.

But there is nothing like the Warsaw Pact-NATO standoff in world events. And no organization that even links these nations into even a loose alliance.

But we are offering the Indians nuclear technology. And our support for Pakistan is highly conditional. I also fail to see how our assistance for Pakistan (which has always been conditional on specific American interests like fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan or the Taliban) outweighs the Chinese giving the Pakistanis the ability to launch nuclear weapons at western India.

I've read all of these, and I still don't see how any of this goes beyond simple diplomatic posturing, and it certainly doesn't come close to the levels necessary to constitute any kind of alliance. If anything, the United States and India are on their ways to being partners.

Has China made that transfer? No. China is in large part the reason that India has the size of nuclear deterrent that it does.

No, that is the inevitable result of the Cold War, where India actually did lean towards Russia and most of their procurement was from there.

Are you serious? Russia isn't a superpower anymore. Bidding and equipment compatibility are much more of a factor when it comes to things like this.

Tronic

All yours.

Tronic

India does not constitute a seperate geopolitical pole because we are and have remained neutral on the world stage. Even in the past, we did not willingly walk into the Soviet camp; we simply did not have a choice as we needed a superpower to keep the other superpower (America) out of the picture while India cleaned up its backyard in the '71 war (millions of Bangladeshi refugees fleeing the genocide in East Pakistan into India prompted military action). But then again, that was then, this is now. As for your second point; Given that Indian military-industrial complex is still nowhere near as advanced then that of Russia's or America's; but it is nowhere near non-existant. India builds its own fighter aircraft, MBTs, aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, rocket launchers, you name it..

It would only be a East-West stand-off if India was leaning one way then another or if America supported the Pakistani-backed insurgency.

Chiron, the ground realities:

In Bhutan, China and India collide

‘120 Chinese intrusions, but what is India doing?’

China's lack of clarity on LAC angers India-India-The Times of India

'China doesn't have legal claim on Tawang' - Sify.com

AFP: Indian PM reaffirms hold over territory claimed by China

Unless China drops its claim on Indian territory; China and India can never be the best of friends.

It has already been negotiated between the US and India; the negotiations are now with the world body, namely NSG and the like; and also with other Indian political parties. And these transfers are only a small thing. There are many more symbols of a growing closeness like the much more frequent joint training exercises. Pakistan is a closer US ally, but India gets invited to the major joint training exercises like Red Flag. Why, I ask?

It has much more to do with logistics then political leanings. Heck, Indian army chose the Russian T-90s despite being inferior to the Indian Arjun MBTs simply because the army's entire logistics is set up to handle Russian equipment. Picking the Arjun tank would have meant stripping the entire logistical chain and re-building it to handle Western and Indian equipment. I'm sure it is not because the Army is leaning towards Russia then India. It will be a lenghty procedure, taking about 20-30 more years moving away from the Russian set up.

Then care to explain why Moscow is trying to blackmail India to keep it away from America? Russian turbulence for Indian airbase

India is developing its own system; it is called IRNSS.
ISRO begins development of IRNSS programme
India is in the GLOSNASS project simply because IRNSS will take much longer to go global; as right now the development of it is only concentrated on covering India and and its surrounding countries. In developing the GLOSNASS with Russia, India will be somewhat part owners; that is why it was chosen over Galileo and GPS.

lwarmonger

Yaaaay! I get to answer!

Because the United States doesn't trust Pakistan any further than we could throw that entire country. It isn't stable, and while it is occasionally useful to us, we aren't wedded to assisting Pakistan unless it furthers our national interests.

India, on the other hand, is being considered as a strategic partner, and is certainly more stable.

Chiron

Same as the Selective Availability of GPS is controlled by the U.S.

So again, why does India trust Russia more than the US for the targeting of crucial weapons systems such as ballistic missiles? The US system right now is fully functional, unlike its Russian counterpart, and would offer much better service. Why did the Indians go with the inferior Russian system if it had nothing to do with politics?

lwarmonger

You quoted this, so I don't understand why you didn't even address it, but just to make sure you saw:

Tronic

There is no Selective Availability for the GPS anymore and I doubt there will be one for GLONASS for competitive reasons. Americans have perfected newer technologies to deny the enemy use of navigation systems rather then flicking the Selective Availability switch which they disabled years ago.

And Chiron, enough evidence and facts have been provided to you to negate some sort of an "Eastern alliance". You have to decide whether you are here only to push your point or actually learn and discuss views.

Tronic

Have already said it; because of part ownership. India will have some leverage when deciding with whom to share the technology with. Ofcourse, this is apart from the fact that in recent times Russia has been found to not honor signed pacts so after footing the bill for the GLONASS there is no gaurantee we still won't be left dry like Gorshkov deal. The Il-38 naval aircraft upgrade deal is another example; the poor quality of the upgrade and Russia tossing it down India's throat is another example why the Indian Navy is looking towards replacing the Russian Tu-142Ms with the American P-8s.

Chiron

They have the ability to turn it back on in times of war. Same for GLONASS. Obviously it worried the Indian military command that the US could use this option incase of furture conflict with Pakistan. That is why India has chosen the Russian system.

It is obvious that countries such as Russia and China are resisting the geopolicy of the U.S. empire. This is not some kind of point or agenda that I want to push, this is an obvious conclusion based on the observation of current events. So just because the "cold war has ended" doesn't mean the U.S. will never be challenged again on the global scale. Nationalistic pride of some U.S. citizens here prevents them from looking dispassionately at the fact that there is a coalition of countries which are now actively challenging U.S. dominance.

And just because India inherited its relationship with Russia from the cold war doesn't make it any less of a current fact that she is sponsoring the development of the Russian military-industrial complex--where as the U.S. would rather see a degradation of it. You think this is not political, but I disagree with you. And only time will tell whether the strength of this relationship will decline or become more comprehensive.

Tronic