Ironduke

I frankly don't see how China and India belong to the same alliance, or alliance in the works, or whatever it is. It's a vast misinterpretation and oversimplification of the geopolitical stage.

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The Buck Stops Here

Chiron

Until recently Turkey and Greece did not have very good relations because of Cyprus but they still joined the same alliance as they had alot of common allies ie. the UK, US. Similarly, India and China have Russia as their main ally. The US is preventing reunification of Taiwan with the mainland--which is one of China's main geopolitical goals and the US supports India's archrival, Pakistan, so the two countries also have a common geopolitical adversary.

Here's a look at how the Sino-Indian relationship is developing:
China, India agree to push forward strategic, cooperative partnership--Xinhua

Officer of Engineers

You call 6500 a large scale military exercise?

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Chimo

S-2

Now THAT's a large-scale exercise.

Ahhhh!!! The good ol' days when the frontiers of freedom clearly resided where a man could get a good drink now and again.

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"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

Officer of Engineers

The Canadians shall not move with lights off during night hours.
The Canadians shall not move during night.
The Canadians shall not move over civilian farmfields.
The Canadians shall not move without orders.
The Canadians shall not move.

Yep, those were the days.

lwarmonger

Um, China has been one of Pakistan's most consistent allies since the 1960's... far more consistent than the United States.

The basis for this thread is a futile attempt to portray in Cold War terms the modern political situation. It isn't that simple. I'd say that India and the US have very little to fight about at the moment.

Officer of Engineers

I'd say Britney Spears may be cause for war. She wants to move to India. The US don't want her back.

Chiron

While it's true that the Sino-Pakistani relationship is strong, it is uncertain whether it is deeper than the cooperation between Pakistan and the US. The US hands out $300 mil in military aid to Pakistan each year alone.. do you know if China does anything similar?

I'm still studying this factor of Sino-Pakistani relations.. if you could provide relevant/useful links then I'd appreciate it, especially about volume of arms transfers and military aid.

FullTank

This analysis is utterly rubbish.

A better reasoning would be that the guy had only 2 colors at his disposal and got too confused.

you got a lot of catching up to do.

China supplied nuclear weapons design(as many experts here on this board have confirmed) and ballistic missiles to Pakistan. What bigger co-operation do you want?

US has done no such thing(although it may have remained silent on the issue and now repenting).

After India, US is the most hated country in Pakistan. Forget the aid part, I wouldn't mind taking money from someone I hate.

lwarmonger

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/pac0807.pdf

That is a pretty interesting and concise discussion of the current problems with Sino-Indian relations, but I can summarize it in only a couple of words. They are too close.

If you want information on Pakistan, I suggest perusing the Southeast Asian sections of this forum... you will find a lot of information there.

lwarmonger

Here is another interesting one, specifically pertaining to China's assistance to Pakistani nuclear development.

CNS - China's Nuclear Exports and Assistance to Pakistan

Tronic

India is a red country!? Indian commies will love you for this. Now, what do we have common with China? That we both buy weapons from Russia? I thought the map was based on geopolitics? Or is it based on weapons sales? You need to decide that first. And as for Nepal; they have waged war against commies for decades, so don't know how they land up redish.

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Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

Tronic

Who did India fight a war with? US or China?
Who does India have border disputes with? US or China?
Against who did India develop a nuclear deterent for? US or China?

I would the say the two countries who have a common adversary are India and US; the common adversary being China.

Chiron

The popular sentiments within the population and the policies of the ruling regime are two different things. If foreign policy of governments was determined by the emotions of the populace then the US would have no allies in the middle-east besides Israel.

The US has supplied Pakistan with various missiles and missile technology as well. If you look at the publicly known Pakistani arms imports (see SIPRI database) you will notice that the US is as big a supplier of weapons for Pakistan as is China. Plus I don't know if the Chinese military aid/subsidies to Pakistan are anywhere near the US figure. Since 2001 the US has given Pakistan close to $10 billion in various packages (including FMF). (see here) This is on par, if not outstripping the US aid to Israel, one of its main strategic allies and protectorates.


Transfers of weapons and military technology are heavily politicized matters and are an important aspect of geopolitics. Just by looking at a country's arms imports you can get a hint at its geopolitical leanings. Arms exports maintain the efficiency of a country's military-industrial complex which is very important incase a conflict arises. Thus weapon importers indirectly support the military readiness of the exporting country and the further development of its military-industrial potential.

There are many other various factors which are used in the analysis at http://my.opera.com/Kiron/blog/, but it is a work in progress therefore not all of them have been applied to each country yet. That is why I initiated this discussion and it has been very helpful so far.


Initially the Indian officials declared that the nuclear deterrent was developed to counter China, but today India's nuclear forces act as a deterrant against China, Pakistan, US and any other country which could threaten Indian security.

India has fought wars both with China and Pakistan. The Pakistani wars being more recent. In those wars the Soviet Union/Russia supported India while US and China supported Pakistan. India faces a Pakistani-backed insurgency in its Kashmiri disctrics which is a constant source of hostilities between the two nations to this day. While the Sino-Indian territorial dispute no longer manifests into military tensions.


Anyway, I have adjusted the status of Pakistan which is now classed as a "country where NATO members have relatively significant political, military and/or economic influence". I think this is reasonable considering all the factors:

Pakistan (4,260): Designated as Major non-NATO US ally (wiki); strategic partnership with China (link); SCO observer (link); US military presence related to "Operation Enduring Freedom" (link); US FMF recipient ($298,800,000 in 2005, $297,000,000 in 2006) (link); recieved over $10 billion in overt U.S. assistance FY2001-FY2007 (link); purchaser of US weapons (2004,2005,2006); major purchaser of Chinese weapons (SIPRI); ongoing military tensions with India over Kashmir (wiki)


I have also adjusted India's status, bringing it closer to neutrality:

India (19,040): SCO observer (wiki); major purchaser of Russian weapons (link,2000,2001,2002,2003,2004,2005,2006), 70-80% of Indian armament is of Soviet/Russian origin (link); purchaser of NATO and Israeli weapons (SIPRI); ongoing military tensions with Pakistan over Kashmir (wiki)

Bluesman

Y'all ever hear of buttermilk pie? I love it, and although I shouldn't eat any while I'm recovering, it sure would be delicious.

Loves me some pie. Yessir.

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"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell