dalem

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

Okay, so you're building a little mountain out of a palmfull of crap, and you call me ignorant because I disagree with you.

Let's start RIGHT at the basics.

Do you accept the legal validity, existance, and consequences of the current national borders of the country known as the United States of America?

A simple Yes or No will get us started.

-dale

dalem

Because they are apt comparisons?

Why is the simple concept of citizenry so difficult for some people to understand?

If I'm a U.S. citizen it is (relatively) impossible to deport me!

Dig?

-dale

Adux

hmm, what do you think of paisley then????

Glasgow is heading towards a meltdown.

Look at this Indian dude here, did my MBA at Graduate School of Business, Strathclyde Uni, Found it is better to be in India, and can make more money here. Didnt even bother about a permenant visa or anything of that sort, got the next plane to India. 3 years over there, had a great time. Got drunk in all the clubs over there. Women were real nice, especially the one's with viking heritage. As time goes, you will see less and less of Indians going abroad.

Honestly hated the Indians and Pakistani's living there, they are not ready to integrate into the society as well are more narrow minded, racist(even towards me), Heck, Native Indians are more liberals than the dud heads who stay there.

Adux

Amosgraber,

If one goes so much in history and make decisions based on that, nation states as it is today will cease to exist. The moment US government drew the boundery line, everyone outside that has no right. Just like LoC, People on the Pakistani side of Kashmir has no business on our side of Kashmir. They dont like it, well thats life.

AmosGraber

Dale,

I would never call anyone ignorant, nor have I called you ignorant. I find your points of view very interesting and compelling even though we may be at somewhat of an impasse on the issue of immigration.

However I will just try to simply categorize my points:

1. I served this country in the Corp...(Ewww-RAH), I am semper fidelis to this country, I would die in less than a moments breath for this country.

2. I just truly believe migrant workers profit this country.

3. Historically migrant workers have helped make this country as strong as it is now.

4. I will admit, it somewhat angers me, when people mislabel Native Americans south of the Rio Grande as "Mexican illegals" simply because they adopted Spanish rather than English like their cousins who live north of the Rio Grande.

5. The European ethnocentric culture in America is changing in the 21st century.

6. This change no matter how strongly opposed today is inevitable.

7. When the Hispanic American population starts to become more dominant than the traditional European based population; immigration laws will become more sympathic to the plight of migrant workers coming from Mexico. This will resemble the same sympathic immigration policy towards European migrants during the early 20th century.


However, if any of these positions or how I may have inferred them in any of my previous posts somehow implied I viewed your positions as ignorant; I humbly apologize.

Kind Regards,

Amos

__________________
Wherever there is authority, there is no freedom-Prince Peter Kropotkin

AmosGraber

[quote=texasjohn;440026]Interesting links; my last class in history last semester was centered on British Imperialism. I was in no way trying to infer there was no mistreatment or abuse by the British upon India's population. However, trying to state that to compare the British imperial abuse to the uttermost devastation of the Native American is somewhat a stretch at the best. Historian’s estimates place the pre-colonial population of Native Americans at more than 100 million, with about two-fifths in North America, including Mexico, its population alone being 30 million. By contrast, during the same period, the fifteenth century, the population of Europe up to the Ural Mountains, that is, western and eastern Europe combined, was populated by some 50 million people.

Historians believe the spread of European diseases, like small pox and others devastated this population within a few generations. Historians have concluded that the result of the process constituted the greatest demographic disaster in human history: a 90 percent decrease within a few generations of European invasions.

Returning to my previous point that is: trying to compare the atrocities committed by the British upon the India people to the genocide of Native Americans. Well as far as I understand India is still populated in the millions, if not billions by indigenous people; while the Native American population will take centuries to return to their pre-colonial numbers.

I hope this clarifies my previous statements.

bonehead

AmosGrabber. I have a couple of questions for you:

1) People have been "stranded" on the wrong side of countries' borders all over the world as political boundaries have been changed. In nearly every other instance around the world people are shot at, detained and treated like criminals when they illegally cross boarders. Specifically, how does Mexico treat immigrants who illegally cross Mexico's southern border. Additionally, Mexicans are settling in places that were never their "original ancestral homeland.( not too very many Apaches lived in the Chicago area hundreds of years ago as any that did make the trip would most likely been wiped out by the local native population) Immigration is one thing but a mass movement of people who cross the border at will is another thing entirely. The question is,"Why should the U.S. be any different than any other country in the world when it comes to protecting its borders?"
2) What is wrong with Mexicans staying at home and fixing their own problems. Mexico does have many things going for it, but the corruption is standing in the way of a healthy economy and thus good jobs at home and therefore no reason to pull up stakes and go north.

bonehead

[quote=AmosGraber;440117]The devastation of the native new world population was because they had no resistance to the "old world" diseases. Tens of millions died, not because of malice, but of ignorance and the randomness of life. India always had closer ties to the "old world" and thus resistance to old world diseases. Later on, "when the west was won" era in the U.S. disease was intentionally spread among the native population and that was genocide, pure and simple.

AmosGraber

My point is the United States is equally responsible for the current immigration problem, along with, as you correctly stated the Mexican government.

First our responsibility lies in two different concepts the first being historical, which I referred to in my previous postings as blowback. The first blowback began at the end of the Spanish-American War to the present with American businesses and employers being more than welcoming to migrant workers; during these times migrant workers helped to build our great nation, just a few examples: the continental railways and helping turn the desert southwest into productive farmland. The second blowback occurred more recently in the form of American corporate greed.As I stated previously: during the late 20th century and early 21st century widespread abject poverty and starvation in Mexico was at almost epidemic levels due to US corporations relocating their cheap-labor plants from the US-Mexico border to Asia, and after Mexican banks and telecommunications were privatized, this created dozens of instant billionaires and plunged millions into poverty.

Now to further clarify my point, in regards to responsibility, the United States is a great nation. We should also be a responsible nation in accordance to our actions. In addition I believe the current mentality of those who just want to; "kick them all out" fail to realize the responsibility our nation has played in promoting the plight of migrant workers.

Furthermore, we will never 'kick them all out', because for one important simple reason the demographic culture of the United States is changing. Soon the Hispanic population will gain the upper hand in dealing with this problem, due to white European descent Americans dropping to below 50% of the population; so whatever tough legislation may or may not be passed by the federal, state, or local governments in the present; is in reality a little too late so to speak. When the Hispanic population, probably by the year 2050, gains the upper hand they will either reverse or create new immigration laws that will be more sympathic to migrant workers, than the current public opinion and trend.

Adux

So Canada is white, therefore open borders, while Mexico Hispanic therefore closed? So in 2050 Hispanic's closes the Canadian borders and open's the Mexican one.


Seriously.

Canada border is open, because there is postive and profitable impact on the USA, while Mexicans with their lower education standards and purchasing power, will always take away from the USA and never returning the favour. The result the American tax payers paying for the benfit some other nationalities. When USA currently has 37 million citizens under the poverty line. USA cant afford its genorsity.

If mexico is as bad as it is now in comparison to USA, in 2050. I dont think Hispanic Americans will open thier borders for them.

AmosGraber

The federal government receives over $7 billion dollars annually from migrant workers, through Social Security taxes. This is hardly "chump" change. Canada is also the country that all but one of the 9/11 hijackers entered from; along with the fact there is a rising fundamentalist Muslim population in Canada is hardly close to qualify the open border with Canada as being positive and profitable.

Adux

You are equating Canadian citzens with illegal immigrants is deplorable, They were the first one's to offer you support after 9/11, and is fighting a war on your behest in a manner of speaking in Afghanistan. Should we compare the crime rates of people coming through the canadian border to that of Mexican. Though 9/11 was tragic event, it was not done by canadians. is it?

What is the monetary comparison of trade being done with Canadians to that of Mexicans. How much does Canadians contribute to USA, to that of Mexicans. I dont agree with your notion, that USA is a 'birthright' of some people in Mexico who havent had conenctions with USA for generations.


I am not from your country therefore dont know much how healthcare, as well as this extra illegals have affected society, crime rates, money going out of the country etc. How much having these illegals is costing the USA. I will read about it and will definitly get back to you on that.

bonehead

There is never a shortage to the problems of illegal immigration but to say, "OH what the hell. We lost so we may as well throw the doors open wide and whatever happens happens", is a piss poor way to go about things. The flipping of American demographics is by your words about 45 years from now. much can happen by then. Much will happen by then so it may be premature to count the chickens at this time. Corporate greed is indeed one of the driving factors(American fault) and it is being dealt with, though not nearly as aggressively as many would like, but to allow illegals to come in because of corporate greed is like trying to get a right out of two wrongs. Lastly, this line of thinking is like saying, Hey, the radical muslims want to come in and take us over as well. Can't do nothing about it so what the hell. Lets let the terrorist in too as they are going to change our world anyway." Good lord man. Isn't your current way of life worth fighting for?

dalem

Yes or No. That's all I asked for. Not an apology, not a resume.

Yes or No. Start with that.

-dale

AmosGraber

I have fought for my country. I served in the United State Marine Corps. My statements were more observations and reflections of the reality of the situation. We will never kick them all out, that is unrealistic and bordering on fantasy thinking; which will only result in a massive waste of tax payers’ money which will be wasted on government bureaucracy placating current public opinion. What we can do is reform immigration laws. I believe this reform should be centered on accountability not on expulsion.