dalem

You are completely ignoring the fact that they are not here legally. I don't care how they feel. I don't care what they want. I don't care if their country is completely f*cked and they are not fixing it.

If they want to work hard and become an American, I want them here, and I want them here legally. If they do not want to work hard or do not want to be an American, I don't want them here. The law, as written, is supposed to support MY position.

It's a metaphor more than anything, but if a physical wall will be effective then that's what I want. It seems that right now that's what we need to do, so sure, put one up. People will still kill themselves to come here no matter what our border looks like.

Why can't I just go over to some guy's house and bed his hot wife? Eat his food? Drive his car? I want all of these things, so aren't I free to just take them?

Of course I'm not.

You are ignoring the basic concept of ownership and private property and the traditions and laws behind them. Are you a Socialist?

-dale

Zaphael

The original topic was regarding Legal immigration wasn't it?

I'm For it. People migrate for a variety of reason. To get a change of pace, change of lifestyle, for some, hopes of a better future. As long as they do it through the proper channels, why should anyone stop them from fulfilling their dreams?

troung

Any wild eyed liberal who uses the term undocumented worker should be sent to Mexico or Canada.

And as for a paranoid American (a slam on white people it seems) - I am not white... guess it is not a racial issue...

__________________
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

Julie

I'm not in any way attempting to take this part out of context but, I think this is an important concept that you have used Dale. Let's break that down just a bit.

You can take those things, but at your risk of serious consequences. It is the consequences that our Federal Government is not invoking. However, the Federal Government is passing laws mandating that the State Governments invoke, and abide by laws, as to immigration, which only does one thing.....makes the State Government look like the bad guys, and the Federal Government, giving free health care (medicaid), welfare, look like the good guy.

The Federal Government is prompting them to come here with free milk and cookies, and mandating that the State take them away from them.

I have to say that isn't fair. It isn't fair at all. And it is one of the most ludicrous situations I've ever seen occurring, for such a long period of time.

The (illegal) immigrants feel, after 3-5 years, they have rights, just as US citizens, and they do not.

If Dale bedded this guy's hot wife after a few years, would Dale feel he had some rights over her, for some unknown reason?

omon

i like this concept.

i got here thru high wall, tiny gate, it even started before i ever saw a plane ticket, in us embassy in moskow, tons of paperwork, interview, med exams, but i didn,t mind that even 1 bit. but it was relatevly easy back in those days, hell, to get pistol lisence in nyc i had to go thru more paperwork, interviews and investigations, no med test thou. but i,m sure police plaza looked at my med record, to see if i,m a nutcase.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

dalem

Julie-

No, I don't gain any "rights" regarding someone else's wife just by bedding her over time, and society agrees. That's why we still have marriage and divorce as legal states of being.

The example I used while talking with one of my illegal neighbors over beers last year is the Party Crasher:

Suppose you are hosting a party. A big party with lots of guests, lots of lavish food and drink both catered and home made. It's a big party and hard to keep track of everyone coming and going.

Now a guy is walking down the street. He sees the party. He walks up to the door and looks in. People are going in and out, everyone assumes the new guy is with someone else, and there's even a guy inside who's waving at him with a big tray of food.

So he goes in. He grabs a sandwich and a beer, finds a quiet corner, and hangs out for a while.

Now, is he evil? No. Is he supposed to be there? No. Does the host bear some responsibility for not keeping better track of his guests? Yes. Can the host ask him to leave, and if he doesn't leave, throw him out? Yes. The only person with any right or authority over this guy is THE HOST. Period.

I could complicate the analogy more but there's no need here, the point is obvious.

Once I explained it that way to the guy, he understood my position. Personally, I hope that however we shore things up, immigration-wise, he's able to work within the law and stay or come back - he's exactly the kind of guy we want in this country, and he'll make a great American.

I know that's reather a complicated position for a conservative who votes Republican to have. Heck, according to the Air America folks and other lefty liberals I read and listen to, I don't even exist. I'm supposed to be a racist, unyielding xenophobe.

-dale

gunnut

In addition to what Julie said, you can hit the "quote" button at the end of every single post to automatically quote the post you want to reply to.

In hypertext, every action (quote, bold, itallic) starts with a command in bracket like [ B ] (no spaces in between of course) and ends with a slash command like this [ / B ].

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"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

iamwill

what are we going to do with employers that continue to break the law and hire illegal immigrants. these guys are just making it worse!

video discussion on immigration reform

can someone explain the STRIVE Act more clearly?

glyn

__________________
Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

dalem

I can't quote specifics, but the general impression I get from the blogs I read (Malkin, Hewitt, Powerline, etc.) is that employer enforcement/attrition is working to a degree, so we definitely have to keep that up.

-dale

AmosGraber

Dalem posted, “Why can't I just go over to some guy's house and bed his hot wife? Eat his food? Drive his car? I want all of these things, so aren't I free to just take them?

Of course I'm not.

You are ignoring the basic concept of ownership and private property and the traditions and laws behind them. Are you a Socialist?”

I was trying to bring an historic perspective to immigration which is mired by present day politics. The ethnic historic heritages of most migrant workers are that they are Native Americans: most “Mexican illegals” (as many like to describe them) are in fact descended from Apache, Navajo, Sioux, Cheyenne, Pueblo, and Aztec Indians; just to name a few. To use your “house” example analogy; in the sense of understanding history, European colonialist have already came over to someone’s house, following your analogy, to the Native American's house. However in this comparison you not only bedded their wife; but killed the husband, children and burned down their house; then built your own house, then wonder why they are banging at the door wondering why they can’t come back in.

I do agree with you it really is basic concept of ownership, private property, traditions, laws, and I will add one more honoring past treaties made with Native Americans. This is the reason we allow some Indian Nations to have their own autonomous nations throughout Oklahoma for instance.

Sometimes you should not make present day judgments without fully understanding the historical perspectives.

Julie asked, “How do they do this without proper SS #'s? Please explain. And if they use stolen #'s, someone is getting the credit for it.”

Actually when most employers hire a migrant worker without a social security number they merely denote them with the number of 000-00-0000. As crazy as it might sound the government accepts this, and starts to take out taxes from their check. And remember Julie the $7 billion dollars the federal government collects from them is money they will never be able to draw upon; as do American citizens who pay into social security.

Texasjohn, “The native "Red Indians" if you will, all live within the borders of our great nation as we know it today -USA.”

I understand that new citizens are required to pass certain historical tests or exams, but your above statement is not only wrong but I would guess even those who may totally disagree with my perspective on immigration would also agree, that all “Red Indians” as you describe them do not all live within the United States. A little research on your behalf should clear this up. As I have already stated the Treaty of Guadalupe and the Gasden Purchase which ended the Spanish-American war resulted in splitting the Indian Nations of the American Southwest. Just because some of these Apaches, Pueblos, and Navajos were south of the Rio Grande did not automatically make them non-Native Americans!

Tesasjohn stated, “If I was to try to sneak into India (my birthplace) without a visa, I would find myself in an Indian jail as a "illegal alien".”

The obvious difference is when India was controlled by the British Empire they did not commit an entire genocide upon your people, and those that were left living, relocate them outside of their nation. Your comparison is like comparing apples with oranges, there is no correlation.

However I must end this post with this obvious reality. As stated in one of my previous posts. By the year 2050, (some studies believe this will happen much sooner), the European white population will only amount to 50% of the population down from 75% in the 1990s. When this occurs the Hispanic population will have an increasing voice in the laws in regarding immigration, this wave can not be stopped. When this happens our laws will be a lot more sympatric to migrant workers; that is the true reality of the immigration problem.

__________________
Wherever there is authority, there is no freedom-Prince Peter Kropotkin

FibrillatorD

Dale and Julie, why must immigration be compared to adultery or parties.

Do we deport people for tax evasion? Do we deport people for mail fraud or government corruption?

I mean, if you believe in the punishment fitting the crime (the criminality of it was never in doubt), and the crime is mooching the system, I think we have a double standard, eh?

texasjohn

[quote=AmosGraber;440014][b]

The obvious difference is when India was controlled by the British Empire they did not commit an entire genocide upon your people, and those that were left living, relocate them outside of their nation. Your comparison is like comparing apples with oranges, there is no correlation.

[.QUOTE]

Please read this first:

Britain India Massacre 1919

The Amritsar Massacre

Sepoy Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now take a deep breath....read, read, and read....

Expat Canuck

I lived in the UK for 2 years, my last address was in Seven Sisters, London and I had a nice yellow and blue sign asking for info on a gang rape in the park....

I lived in Newquay, Shetland Islands as well as a village called Hook Norton (Best Bitter!!). I also stayed in Kilmarnoch (spelling?) outside Glasgow and a bunch of other places. I know it's rough and there are a lot of new dipshits which is why I stand by my statement saying the issue is not being able to deport jerks and their kids, I don't care if they where born there. The parents should have taught their kids better and if they can't or will not they can get the f**k out.

Expat Canuck

Why bother when we are allowed to use our license and if we need a trip to the hospital we can go home where it's free.

Also, where is this 300,00 figure coming from?? That's a huge chunk out of our 32,000,000 and quite honestly makes no sence. We have no need to jump the border, we're not exactly a 3rd world country.

The Maple Leaf over our heads, ummm we actually do that sort of. I have 2 flags here in Australia that I wave on Canada day and we plaster our bags with them.

It's like a reflex or something we can't help it. However, this does not mean we try and ram it down everyones throat. If I saw an American in Canada running around on the 1st of July with a flag all I'll do is grab some beer and join in the fun.

Amos, lastly I am of MicMac Indian decent. I was not born in the USA and therefore have no right to jump the border. We can spout history all we want but the fact is the borders are now in place and that's how it is.