GVChamp

For the record, college dropouts do better than college graduates among the richest of the rich. Granted, that's college and those are exceptional people, but I think it's worth mentioning.


My 2 cents: PCP (parking lot-class-parking lot). It's a thing that happens to many students at a commuting school. The problem with PCP is that students don't really form any real emotional/social attachment to the school and the school community. Such students are less likely to finish out their school experience. I speak from experience, having almost decided to quit and try something else a couple of times.
From the looks of the recommendations and the student complaints, it sounds like the same thing is playing a role in these students choosing to drop out of high school.

__________________
"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

Skull6

Then we're in for a world of hurt in the near future. The internet IS more than that (or less, depending on you viewpoint).

Fib, pray tell--do you REALLY believe EVERYTHING you read--on the web or elsewhere?

What's your take on just this site, I wonder?The Flat Earth Society -- Home

I could supply many more, but I think this single one demonstrates my point sufficiently.

The internet is a form of communication. Period. An amalgomation of knowledge, supposition & opinion. While communication in itself is a good thing, & ideas or processes that can make communication even clearer are good things, the internet is not the end-all, catch-all tool for educating us humans--young or old. & by all means, please stop thinking that all human knowledge is contained within this electronic form. It just isn't--yet.

If a certain set of "standard knowledge" isn't decided upon & pushed forth, society as a whole will suffer. Can't read? How do you vote in the polls--trust someone else to mark the ballets for you? Can't count? How do you provide correct change, or even know if the customer is giving you enough money to pay for the product? When employers (whoever they may be) see "Graduated from XYZ High School" on a resume, they feel safe in assuming that the applicant has at least a basic set of skills & knowledge. Otherwise, those same employers would be testing each & every applicant similar to our current standardized tests anyway.

My wife is an educator. She & I both agree that changes could be made for the better within the current system. We both do not agree that catering to the minority that "just can't hang" is in everyone's best interest--for the reasons mentioned above.

I apologize--I cannot remember who made the comment about parents influencing their child's education "as long as they are able" above, but I certainly hope you mean "medically." Otherwise all the parent needs is a real interest in helping their child. I might not have the knowledge to help my kids with their "new math" homework or their "whole language" reading assignments, but I've made it a point to know someone who can--& hence ask the favor every so often, for my childrens' benefit.

P.S. Couldn't it be argued that Mr. Gates felt he had learned all he needed to move forward in his life, to be successful--& hence dropped out of college? (Yes, I do see the irony of a very successful Harvard drop-out polling high school drop-outs on their reasoning. ) One of the questions I would have added to this poll is "Do you think you've learned enough to be successful in your life from this moment forward?"

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If you know the enemy and yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu

FibrillatorD

This is one of my fav's
There Go the Dinosaurs

A network of neurons, then. The Internet will never be perfect because people will never be perfect. Until of course you start engineering people's genes, and therefore engineering the Internet. But then you get into that whole arrogance thing:
And what should make the cut?

A certain level of arrogance is required to even think like that.

I mean, seriously, if you want your kids to be good "strong" people, then don't expose them to a self-reinforcing system conceived in arrogance.
Seriously?
Next time you have 90 minutes free, go to Target and fill out a job application.
Or a parent's child (its a she) could google her questions. Of course, she won't find answers to specific hoops that must be passed, but chances she'll get her head around the core concept much more efficiently than sitting in a classroom. That said, I sometimes prefer it explained to me in person. Directly. My questions, answered.

Because that's the whole point. People learn best when they search out knowledge. Not when they take it in the arse. I've never said the Internet can teach anyone. Ultimately, people should be given the trust and freedom to do with their education as they see fit. You focus on getting people connected, like I'm saying, then you don't need school counselor to tell them that computer jobs are in high demand.
The majority polled said they regretted dropping out. No doubt because most employers aren't like Target. Most require skills, and proof of skills in the form of a degree. I get it. Dropouts get it. But that doesn't justify the education system.

texacali

What should be taught IMHO is the ability to read and write and cipher (basic math). With these basic tools anyone may explore the internet or print history to suit their tastes. I must say that those three skills can be imparted at an early age and that critical thinking and analysis, that is, judgement, develops concomitant with experience. Furthermore, a child's mind is empty with regards to the total capacity of it. Much of what we were taught in childhood did not seem relevant until we were old enough to face it. Better to prepare the next generation for any eventuality than to leave them mystified at something that has come up before, probably more than once.
The recruit does not see the purpose of his training until he has gone to the field.
If the purpose of the educational system is only to provide cubicle slaves to corporations, let those corporations open their own academies. If we desire innovative and imaginative children get the Federal Government out of our schools and our pockets.

JAD_333

Fil, It's not my approach. It's very old and time tested. One good example is military training. Of course, it's ludicrous to even ask, but go ahead and ask any career military person why recruits aren't allowed to run boot camps or vote on how they'll be educated in military matters. The simplest answer you will get is that a boot isn't ready. It takes years of military experience before someone is able to structure recruit training. And why is that? Because without experience, knowledge and, finally, understanding it isn't
possible for a boot to set up a training curriculum that will train himself to
become an effective soldier.

The civilian counterpart to the military approach to education is fundamentally the same. It assumes the student, like the boot, is uneducated. Oh, he may have some knowledge; lots of drive and ambition; be brimming with idealist ideas; dissatisfied with the system; and all sorts of things like that--all of which is good to a certain extent. But what he doesn't have is experience at all levels of life, and without it he can't possibly understand the system.

Going back to your opening sentence, where you speak about "denial of life post-Internet," it might be good if you explained yourself. I hardly think it means that man will now sprout a third leg or no longer have to deficate. I haven't found any indication in history that man has ever changed, although he is always changing how he does things. He's always looking for better ways to get from point A to point B; to make money; to fight wars; to take his comfort; to attract attention to himself; to satiate his curiosity; to amass power and wealth; to heal his body...and on and on. Pick any century. How life is now is how was then and how it will be post-internet. It would help if you were more exact about what you mean when you say 'life'.

Let me be clear what I mean about education and hurdles. First of all, I believe they go hand in hand and compliment each other. A man or woman with an education but no discipline or drive to master their field contribute little to society. Whereas, a person who faces challenges in the process of becoming educated is more likely to contribute to society. So, I favor an educational system that offers students both.


Hoops, challenges...a rose by any other name...I think I just replied to most of the above. I do value learning, but you're right; not for its own sake. It broadens... Do you recall the saying "education will make you free." On the WAB I pick up the most incredible amounts of information, and viewpoints I never dreamed of. It frees me from biases; eases my concern of the unknown; makes new conclusion possible... That's not learning for it own sake...at least, I don't think so.

Man cannot live by bread alone; he must have peanut butter. That is to say Knowledge isn't enough; you must understand it, and the internet can't do that for you.


Most every dropout I've met won't face the fact that they are lazy, stupid or a troublemaker, and they typically blame everyone else for their predicament but themselves. What value is the opinion of the average dropout when he hasn't completed school and already knows what's wrong with it?

I agree there is something wrong with our educational system, but I don't believe the internet is the only answer.


That's a good starting point for a discussion.

Sure, where's there's smoke, there's fire. Some students working their way through the system may have legitimate gripes; but can dropout gripes be taken seriously? The first question we ought to ask is not 'what can we change to keep you in schoo'l, but 'how do you know the cirriculum is no good if you haven't completed it?'


Depends who is on top. Ordinarily, wisdom comes from the elders in a society, but not every elder is wise, and often the wise elder is not consulted or put in charge.



I love it. But it's just a souped up encyclopedia-newspaper-megaphone..etc.
If you tell a student everything you need to know is on the internet, go get it and never mind the school system, will he develop discipline. discretion. judgement...etc? No. Not anymore than a boot could become a good soldier simply by browsing the internet.

__________________
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

texacali

My high school required two years credit in a foreign language to graduate.
College required proficiency in a second language for admission. The bar was higher then and students had to prove their ability to think independently and also to consider viewpoints other than those ingrained from home. When and where did that change?
We have not gained an advantage by asking less of our children in regards to education, rather we have ceded the high ground to our rivals.

taygone

I'm on the 5 year program for a community college. I really half @ss my way thru college and some how maintain a 3.0 or higher GPA. That's when I realized some college classes are jokes. I remember hearing a lot of people say (way back when) a few jobs preferred job experience over an un-experienced educated person. Then, it became they hired education, but still slightly liked experience that was like in the late 90's early millenium. Now, it's education WITH experience for anyone to even look at your resume. How can I have exp. if I just graduated?
Another thing I don't get is if I worked at one job doing the same job and trying to move over to another company the new company wants that peice of paper (degree) to do the same I job I did at the other place w/o a degree.
One example of confusion, where I'm from everyone has a BA in psychology and the common knowledge is you need a Masters to use it in a psychological field AND you need exp. to get hired I got this info from 5 people I worked with at a job that had absolutely nothing to do with psychology. These people spent thousands on a degree they aren't even using.
I remember before I got the GI Bill I asked why I needed some classes like Art Appreciation and the like and I was given some drivel that it made me a well rounded person or something. Why should I pay a person to teach me to appreciate something I already appreciate? How can someone grade me on my appreciation? I asked if that counselor ever heard the quote, "I may not know art, but I know what I like." I was asked to leave.

The only reason I haven't completed at least an Associates with great speed is because of the "BS" classes I don't feel like paying someone to teach me that life has already taught me. Like Speech, I had no problem getting over my problem of speaking in front of strangers - the military kind of baptizes you by fire that way. Art/Music appreciation? Not knocking the classics, but how is listening to some muscian's or seeing some artist's work both who died centries ago apply to me liking digital quality photos or watching American Idol?

I want that lil piece of paper because it'll open doors for me. Hopefully those doors are inside a mansion.

AmosGraber

The best way to improve education in America, 1st is to listen to teachers. I might be biased since I am an educator. However it seems quite ignorant for people to listen to politicians on ideas on how to create a successful curriculum. It is like allowng the government telling a brain surgeon how to operate on a brain.

The "no child left behind" program is a failure. Education, especially, middle school and high school should be centered on more than just math, reading, and science all in the attempt to pass a state enforced test. Every class room is different, every child is different. Teachers are professionals in the field of education. Teachers are full of great ideas. The people and government should start to listen to some of these ideas. An Irish poet Willian Butler Yeats once said, "Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire."

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Wherever there is authority, there is no freedom-Prince Peter Kropotkin

JAD_333

Fil, you sure like that word, 'arrogance'. No. I am not passing judgement on your vocabulary, just pointing out that if you're going to use the word to refute ideas or discredit people whose ideas you disagree with, at least throw in some logic so we'll know what it is you don't agree with. I am sure you know that arrogance isn't a defect of logic; it's just a characteristic, like vanilla is to ice cream.

FibrillatorD

The Internet frees people from the physical constraints traditionally associated with learning and knowledge. An education system, with hierarchy, bureaucracy, allocation of resources, etc. insists that these barriers remain. It order knowledge according to worth, not according to content, which is the only fair way to do it (and this is how its ordered on the web). The idea that the same people giving kids the best-deal on curricula are also the ones setting the prices on any given chunk of data, this runs counter to the free-market. Its a rigged game.

The Internet eliminates the desirability of an overarching system altogether. Thus, I have great faith in the potential for the Internet to help people learn AND solve lots of mankind's other big problems. We got to get everyone online!

FibrillatorD

I don't think you'd find ANY dropouts in this study who would disagree with you, Amosgrabber

FibrillatorD

These videos I think convey the necessity of getting online for EVERYTHING. Absolute efficiency.

Ironduke

No, classrooms aren't an exclusive source of critical thinking skills, but they are a valuable one. The internet on the other hand has massive amounts of knowledge, but is weak at best at imparting critical thinking skills.

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The Buck Stops Here

texacali

The internet is a library and an agora of ideas. The internet is not a tutor or a teacher.

FibrillatorD

Watch those videos. WE are the Internet. In web 2.0 we basically make everything a hyperlink, we tag everything, just by our use of it, and in 3.0 those tags take on an active mode, so when you browse you are taught by proactive rss feedreaders that act as satellites - a teacher - "roving" the web for material relating to the topic at hand and conveying the web's offerings back to you as you go along. This will be the normal way to "browse" the web.

Count how many times the guy in the third video says "relevant."