Parihaka

Nice find FibrillatorD, a great definition of the political divide in the states whatever anyone may think of Obama.

__________________
In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Bluesman

I don't like 'em either. But when they stop seeking victory, however prone to mistakes they may be, they lose my support until they earn my respect by being for America's interests again. Democrats, in distinct counterpoise, are actively trying to LOSE THE WAR.

What you don't get and probably never will is that Democrats are actually ANTI-AMERICAN, and have been for at least 40 years. Read what they write; listen to what they say. No enemy can slur the country as viciously as a Democrat in full flight about what's wrong with us, our heritage and history, our culture, people. You don't need examples, either: look in any direction at anytime, and you'll find a Democrat hatin' on America.

By the way, you're as wrong as you can dam' well be re: Afghanistan. The fact is that some metrics SEEM to indicate things are getting worse, such as IED attacks on the rise. But, in a way that proves my point for me, the media (by-and-large liberal and Democratic-leaning) utterly ignores the mass of trends that indicate much progress. By using only carefully selected metrics in a way that only a statistician can to prove a point, it seems like Afghanistan is getting away from us. It's not. In my own area of expertise, man-hunting the HVIs, I can tell you that the job with the worst job security is 'Taleban commander'. They can't so much as do a day trip to Afghanistan anymore without getting Hellfire'd by a Predator or a pack of A-10s.

Villages are giving the Taleban the right-about-turn; women and children are participating in government and schools again; and properity is going up by every measure that independent research evaluates.

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"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Bluesman

Don't take that tone with ME. I'm trying to help kill him; you're trying to help him WIN, but you don't even realize that.

You, of all people, have got a LOT o' dam' gall to try that crap with ME, of all people. You don't have the right to even try that, and I sure as hell don't deserve to have that tried on me.

I cannot even believe you're a mod here.

gunnut

And how often do we hear about either of them today?

Osama has thrown some video tapes and lately audio tapes at us since 9-11.

I am willing to bet that he still wants to hurt us, but for some odd reason he has not been able to in the last 6 years. I wonder where the credit is due?

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"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

JAD_333

[/quote]\

Obama as savior? It's tempting to get behind a candidate who is ostensibly about healing. But healing what? Has there ever been a time in this nation's history when a dynamic of opposing political forces hasn't existed? Do we need above all things to let the steam out? That seems to be the author's theme. And of course, if that is the case, he has just the right candidate for the job. I like Obama, but I disagree with him on several key international and domestic issues. Iraq for one. Social Security for another.

The author weaves a complicated, psychological picture of the current American political psyche drawing on abstractions like baby boomers and the Vietnam syndrome. No doubt the human mind is always bombarded by outside influences, and any attempt to grasp how the collective mind affects present events is going to be complicated. But is it really so complicated to see threats to our national security and what we must do to counter them? Isit so complicated to see that the Social Security trust fund is on a course to be drained in 20 or 50 years and to act accordingly? The same goes for all the pressing problems the country has. What we need is a president and a Congress that will get busy doing what has to be done, not a leader whose sole value is to deflate the nation's political tension, which tension has existed since George Washington's time and has driven the country to its greatest achievements. Don't be lulled.

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To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

gunnut

Yes, sir, it is.

Liberals truly believe George Bush is a bigger threat to the world than Osama bin Laden and the US is a terrorist state.

Liberals also believe the rich pays no tax and the best way to fix Social Security is to make the rich pay more taxes.

rich = anyone over poverty line

JAD_333

If this is what you think, I'd expect you to say so, but if it's a fact, I would like to see your proof.

So, you were content with Saddam and angry at OBL until Bush distracted you, and now you're content with OBL and angry at Saddam.

JAD_333

I hope you realize those were rhetorical questions. I believe when things are broke, we ought to fix 'em.


So, I've noticed.

Bluesman

A very well-made point. I want to kill him more than I want to take my next breath. But frustrating him and securing the country from his sickos is purty good, too.

gunnut

I take rhetorical questions very seriously and answer them to the best of my abilities.

troung

Villages didn't like them before hand, they were never terribly popular. But by most accounts they have recovered lost ground and increased their presence across the south.

Afghanistan is barely touched on, and if the media were simply a DNC mouth piece we would hear about 2 badly executed wars.

I'm very happy they have a lot of upward mobility for the lower ranking members, with little job security

But by most accounts they have been pushing up the level of violence, we have the ISAF issues (people in the south are getting stretched, people in the north ain't coming south), and most of our resources were taken off the ball and placed into a different theater. And the Taliban are increasing their presence into other provinces.

Six years into the game they are rebounding and still have the same safe areas from Pakistan.

========
Cool if I PM you in the next day or so?

__________________
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

Bluesman

ANYtime, amigo.

Come Monday, I'm off the bench and back in the game. But my day will start stoopid early and end really late, because I've got about the worst commute that doesn't involve an altimeter, so my replies may be delayed and brief.

I can't wait; I last worked on 29 June, and I feel like Martin Sheen's character in 'Apocolypse Now', when he was in the hotel in Saigon, waiting for his mission orders:

dalem

I can't believe someone posted an article by Andrew Sullivan. When was the last time that guy was relevant?

-dale

FibrillatorD

I would love to see our country engage in a real debate about how to solve Iraq and social security and every other problem we have. As it is, every argument dissolves into one that harkens back to the anger of the 70s: Are you pro-America, or are you Communist?

Sullivan can be long-winded and soft on substance, but does anyone doubt that the following is now true of America?
Does anyone really doubt that we're stuck in the rubric of the 70s? Vietnam and baby boomers aren't hazy abstractions at all. They hold America in a headlock and it makes me sick that 2 generations don't care enough about their country and their kids to NOT pass these feuds on. The sorriest thing of all is that the same people who fought about Vietnam and in the culture wars of the seventies are currently running the country, and want history to view Iraq in the same terms Vietnam was seen. Its so easy and natural for them.

Sorry, I wasn't around during Vietnam. Communism was dead when I became politically-aware, and Obama is one of very few candidates that so far has been immune from the usual election-year scathing. With Obama, for whatever reason, arguments seem to keep a healthy distance from personal attacks. You said yourself you don't like Obama's policies. Fine. You didn't call him a pinko commie traitor scumbag.

So, Bluesman, straight up: Is Barack Obama a pinko commie traitor scumbag?

If you say he is, I won't vote for him.

dalem

Sullivan is cherry-picking. He and his ilk keep trying to paint this picture of overwhelming support for America, both from within and without, but it's bullsh!t. I remember because it made me furious - less than 24 hours after the murdering pig-b@stards did their work, and already people all over the world, including right here in Apple Pie Land, were mewling about how we deserved it, caused it, invited it, needed to question our motives, and not react.

We shouldn't attack Afghanistan, we will fail if we try, we will perish in the harsh conditions, we have no right to attack the Taliban, blah blah blah.

We had help, support, and allies for sure during and after that day, but it wasn't everyone by a long shot, and there were plenty of other voices too.

The fantasy world that Sullivan is trying to rewrite into history simply didn't exist, so f*ck him for his delusions and f*ck anybody else who believes them.

And Obama? I don't care if he sleeps with a copy of Adam Smith under his pillow every night - he's a political lightweight and a defeatist. He should be tarred and feathered, not voted for.

-dale