Stan187

You said that Michael Moore brought up legislative differences as possible cause for more gun violence in the US. And I responded to that. I didn't put words in your mouth or his. You saying so is exactly the kind of baseless attack that you imply to not be so fond of.

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FibrillatorD

I've seen the movie. You haven't. You've made a conclusion about Moore already. I haven't said boo about Moore's politics. You're the one with the arrogant approach which says that Moore is an indiot until he proves himself otherwise, yet you won't lend him your ear.

I haven't attacked anyone or anything. I misinterpreted "How the hell are you going to talk about legislation?" as an affront, probably because I've been on the defensive this whole thread. Having seen the movie, I've concluded that its not nearly the controversial partisan America-hating poison the media's made it out to be. Those on the board who've seen the movie and disagree (like Tophatter) have valid opinions.

By all means, if you or anyone else has something substantive to refute Moore's propaganda, please, let's hear it.

Demosthenes

I agree with your first two sentences but your third one showing your opinion on journalists is a bit too harsh. Give the guys some slack, who else would have the courage to go to war torn areas armed only with a pen?

gunnut

Their courage is not in question.

Their journalistic integrity is.

You weren't around last year to see the thread on photojournalism in Lebanon when Israel launched the attack on Hezbo. Many photos were manipulated, either consciously or subconsciously, to show how much havok was wreaked by the bombing. One of the often used technique was to place some children's items in the photo next to some rubble.

A few photos were actually photochopped by the journalist himself. That was a big scandal when it broke out. But it left the headlines within a day or two. If it were the military releasing photochopped items, the press would have jumped on it for months on end.

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"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

Stan187

I've said my piece, multiple times by now. You refusing to believe what I believe does not make me wrong, and you haven't proven jack to anyone. Hence, me saying, get off your high horse.

JAD_333

Well said.

Intelligent conservative? I don't know about that, but I am a conservative, and I stopped liking those guys long ago. I think, like Moore, they degenerated under the pressure to produce material faster than their intelligence will permit them to digest. That, unfortunately, reflects the inherent weakness of the media: filling the vast news hole to keep to a set schedule comes before quality and accuracy.

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To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

gunnut

My health insurance is as good as it gets. I don't think I can get better care from my personal experience.

Is my experience as valid as the few anecdotes listed in Moore's movie?

If someone can conduct a survey, a random scientific survey, on how our health care system is, how will the result look?

astralis

gunnut,

this link seems to be a pretty decent primer. i like the idea of a very basic form of national health coverage, with private industry covering everything else other than the most basic of services.

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

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Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

gunnut

I understand the problem with our health care. Most of the gripe seems to be from how expensive it is. Well, we only have ourselves to blame.

Our current health insurance model came from WW2. Wages were controlled during WW2. So employers offered health care as extra incentive. I think there was some government perks for the companies too.

Since the employers bear most of the cost, people tend to order the most expensive tests and not being very careful with the type of care. After all, it's "other people's money."

After 60 years of the OPM syndrome, we arrive at how outrageously expensive our health care system is.

I read a column once that suggested we give the money back to the individuals and let us buy our own insurance like how we buy auto insurance, life insurance, and homeowner's insurance. Those aren't as expensive because we always had to shop for them ourselves. Being our own money, we are a bit more careful with it.

I am against even a basic form of health care on the part of the government. Once the government start getting into anything, it only grows. More and more syndromes and tests and drugs will be covered under this plan, until it becomes an all-encompassing monster.

Let the market provide the solution. Rich people can spend more money to buy whatever they want. Middle class people can be more careful with their money. Poor people will be served by non-profits and charitable organizations.

This model will work. We are a generous people. Tell us to do something and we most likely will resist. Ask for our help nicely and we will help.

astralis

gunnut,

so that's the funny thing about the current day system. not persay even how expensive it is, but how many people are uninsured. there's what, some 46 million americans uninsured; that's a lot of slack (and profit!) the health insurance companies aren't picking up. now i'm wondering as to why that's the case. i understand why doctors aren't altogether happy with the cost-cutting and whatnot, but what about the demand side?

FibrillatorD

That's fine. I was speaking to Bowling for Columbine, and the notion that its okay to dismiss Moore categorically because you think you know what the movie's about and how it conveys its meanings and therefore you don't have to watch the thing to form a valid conclusion about it and Moore. I call that bias. I call it arrogant.

As for healthcare (or violence in America, GM, 9/11), of course it doesn't require a movie to have a good debate. But this thread's about dismissing Moore on his facts and half-truths. The Astralis link throws up some pretty sound numbers. Well, how does Sicko stand up to these? Any inconsistencies?

astralis

fibrillator,

did moore go into the weaknesses of the universal health care system? or, let me guess, he ignored it and played up the perks.

crooks

I like Private healthcare, it gives one a bit of independence with your money, vs a universal system where you pay the taxes and that's your say.
The best system is a two-tier one, with the bottom-earners and children getting full healthcare, and the government leaving it to workers to manage they're own healthcare.
Competition should be encouraged as a policy, it's the only way that services improve.

I work five nights a week (part-time during the college term, full-time for this summer) as a barman (it's ironic I sell the stuff but wouldn't touch it myself) in a pub in inner Dublin.
At 25 I'm in very good shape, I play lots of sports and have never had a problem that has required hospital care in my life.
For people like me a universal system is rubbish!
It forces us to pay heavier taxes for services we won't be likely to use.
I prefer the freedom (that I currently have, though the debate in this country is similar to the American one) to pick my own private healthcare provider, so if I do fall ill then I can be assured I'm in the good hands of a doctor who get's payed a wage that he feels is fair.

I also love the way my premium is damn near non-existent, because I don't smoke, don't drink and of course have no medical history.

Maybe Moore should highlight the significant benifits of a Private system, they are there, and not at all difficult to find.

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JAD_333

I am inclined to agree with you in that the result of government control is massive cost to taxpayers and a dampening of private innovation.

The VA health care system is our only true model of government funded health
care, and as a one who is covered by it, I can say that it has become very good. I don't know what would happen if it was extended to all Americans. Prehaps the preventive care side of it would be good to extend as much of the problem in this country is that many low income people only show up for medical treatment when they are very sick.

Stan187

Problem is, that if I'm right above what qualifies as a bottom earner, there is now incentive for me to earn just a little less and actually get more benefit due to free healthcare.