Muslim prayers in school debated

gunnut · 07-12-2007, 00:38 AM

OVERVIEW
Background: The U.S. Department of Education's guidelines say students can pray at public schools during school hours by themselves or with fellow students. However, Šteachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible or other religious activities.

What's happening: A substitute teacher claimed that Carver Elementary School in San Diego was indoctrinating students into Islam, and that a teacher's aide led Muslim children in prayer. An investigation failed to substantiate the claims, but the allegations have thrust Carver into a nationwide debate over prayer in schools.

The future: Carver, which has set aside a 15-minute break to allow time for students to pray, is considering alternative prayer accommodations. Religious and civil rights groups are monitoring developments.

Quote:

Muslim prayers in school debated

S.D. elementary at center of dispute
By Helen Gao
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

July 2, 2007

A San Diego public school has become part of a national debate over religion in schools ever since a substitute teacher publicly condemned an Arabic language program that gives Muslim students time for prayer during school hours.
Carver Elementary in Oak Park added Arabic to its curriculum in September when it suddenly absorbed more than 100 students from a defunct charter school that had served mostly Somali Muslims.

After subbing at Carver, the teacher claimed that religious indoctrination was taking place and said that a school aide had led Muslim students in prayer.

An investigation by the San Diego Unified School District failed to substantiate the allegations. But critics continue to assail Carver for providing a 15-minute break in the classroom each afternoon to accommodate Muslim students who wish to pray. (Those who don't pray can read or write during that non-instructional time.)

Some say the arrangement at Carver constitutes special treatment for a specific religion that is not extended to other faiths. Others believe it crosses the line into endorsement of religion.

Supporters of Carver say such an accommodation is legal, if not mandatory, under the law. They note the district and others have been sued for not accommodating religious needs on the same level as non-religious needs, such as a medical appointment.

Islam requires its adherents to pray at prescribed times, one of which falls during the school day.

While some parents say they care more about their children's education than a debate about religious freedom, the allegations – made at a school board meeting in April – have made Carver the subject of heated discussions on conservative talk radio. District officials have been besieged by letters and phone calls, some laced with invective.

The issue has drawn the attention of national groups concerned about civil rights and religious liberty. The Council on American-Islamic Relations, Anti-Defamation League, American Civil Liberties Union and the Pacific Justice Institute are some of the groups monitoring developments in California's second-largest school district.

Among the critics is Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel with the nonprofit, Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center devoted to “defending the religious freedom of Christians.”

He said he's “against double standards being used,” such as when there is a specific period for Muslim students to pray and not a similar arrangement for Christians.

Carver's supporters noted that Christianity and other religions, unlike Islam, do not require their followers to pray at specific times that fall within school hours, when children by law must be in school. Amid the controversy, the district is studying alternatives to the break to accommodate student prayer.

Capitalizing on what it considers a precedent-setting opportunity created by the Carver situation, the Sacramento-based Pacific Justice Institute has offered to help craft a districtwide “Daily Prayer Time Policy.”

In a letter, the religious-rights organization urged the district to broaden its accommodations to Christians and Jews by setting aside separate classrooms for daily prayer and to permit rabbis, priests and other religious figures to lead children in worship on campuses.

A lawyer representing the district said those ideas would violate the Constitution's prohibition against government establishment of religion.

The uproar over Carver comes as schools across the country grapple with how to accommodate growing Muslim populations. In recent weeks, the University of Michigan's Dearborn campus has been divided over using student fees to install foot-washing stations on campus to make it easier for Muslim students to cleanse themselves before prayer.

“These things are surfacing more and more in many places where large communities of Muslims are coming in and trying to say this is our right,” said Antoine Mefleh, a non-Muslim who is an Arabic language instructor with the Minneapolis public schools.

His school allows Muslim students to organize an hour of prayer on Fridays – Muslims typically have Friday congregational prayers – and make up class work they miss as a result. During the rest of the week, students pray during lunch or recess.

The San Diego chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations supports the Carver program.

“Our country is transforming demographically, religiously,” said Edgar Hopida, the chapter's public relations director. “Our country has to now accommodate things that are not traditionally accounted for before.”

Carol Clipper, who is the guardian of two grandchildren enrolled in the school's Arabic program, said she believes students should be “given the freedom” to pray. Clipper is Christian, and her grandchildren are being raised in both Islam and Christianity.

“I take them to the mosque and they go to church with me,” she said.

Another parent, Tony Peregrino, whose son is not in the Arabic program, said he's OK with the Muslim students praying. What he cares about, he said, is that teachers are doing their job, and his son's education is not affected.

Courts have ruled on a series of school prayer cases over the past half-century, but legal scholars say a lack of clarity remains.

“This is an area where the law is notoriously erratic,” said Steven Smith, a constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.

Voluntary prayers by students are protected private speech, the courts have said. That means students can say grace before a meal and have Bible study clubs on campus, and several San Diego schools do. Public school employees, however, cannot lead children in prayer on campus.

Students also can be excused for religious holidays, such as Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement, and Good Friday during Holy Week.

The federal Equal Access Act requires that extracurricular school clubs, religious and non-religious, be treated equally.

San Diego Unified was sued in 1993 when it denied a University City High School student's request to hold lunchtime Bible fellowship. The court found the district discriminated against religion, because it allowed secular clubs to meet during lunch.

Brent North, a lawyer retained by the district to address concerns related to the Carver program, said the district learned from the University City High case to be “careful about restricting students' right to their own private religious expression, including when it's on campus.”

The district cites Department of Education guidelines on prayer:

“Where school officials have a practice of excusing students from class on the basis of parents' requests for accommodation of non-religious needs, religiously motivated requests for excusal may not be accorded less favorable treatment.”

The midday prayer for Muslims here generally falls between 1 and 2 p.m., North said, and that is before the school day ends.

“What is unique about this request is the specificity of the religious requirement that a prayer be offered at a certain time on the clock,” he said.

North went on to say, “The district's legal obligation in response to a request that a prayer must be performed at a particular time is to treat that request the same as it would treat a student's request to receive an insulin shot at a particular time.”

Mefleh, the Minneapolis Arabic instructor, said he allows his Muslim students to pray at the end of class during the monthlong observance of Ramadan, Islam's holiest period.

“Some accommodation has to come from both sides,” he said. “I just tell them prayer is good. Class is good, too. Your time is precious. You have to come to an agreement with them without making a big fuss. If you want to pray, I understand, but I don't want to interrupt the class too much.”

I don't care if muslim students want to pray 5 times a day. Don't interfere other people's learning, especially if they're in a public school.

It's incredible that Christmas is now refered to as "winter vacation" in public school, but the same public school bans pork and takes out time from everyone's schedule so some muslims can pray.

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Metro -- Muslim prayers in school debated

Ray · 07-12-2007, 00:44 AM

Great stuff.

A huge melting pot is what is acclaimed the US to be.

But watch that it does not melt the US.

Test the water before it boils over.

Christmas is "Happy Holidays". That stumped me!

Now, go ban beef. The Hindus don't take it!

Ban non kosher stuff. Jews only take kosher!

Get halal meat. The Moslems only take halal.

Or just become vegetarians. Saves all the problems!

gunnut · 07-12-2007, 01:05 AM

That's weird, how did I double post a thread?

Can a mod please combine these 2 threads?

One thread has the link to the story, the other one has Brigadier Ray's reply (longer than the one in the thread with the link).

Thanks.

Aby The Liberal · 07-12-2007, 01:20 AM

I find it disturbing that in the name of civil liberties, multi-culturalism and such, religious excess is done in state run schools. This is bound to have an effect on the children, in the form of glorification and promotion of religion. I like the strong stance of Chiraq's France and present Germany on that.

**Parihaka** · 07-12-2007, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

Can a mod please combine these 2 threads?

Thanks.

Done

Ray · 07-12-2007, 02:13 AM

Hey Gunnut,

Your story and comments are longer than what I have written.

Mine is in point form so that it is easy to read and to avoid half****ed comebacks!

Anyway, got to go. The shrill cry calls the faithful to prayers!

gunnut · 07-12-2007, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Hey Gunnut,

Your story and comments are longer than what I have written.

Mine is in point form so that it is easy to read and to avoid half****ed comebacks!

Anyway, got to go. The shrill cry calls the faithful to prayers!

I have a tendency to get sidetracked and longwinded.

I probably hold the record on this board for going on the most tangents ever.

Ray · 07-12-2007, 03:12 AM

And I throw the bait?!

No, I don't think you go tangential. You are quite devoted to your views, some of which I don't agree, but then your views do challenge the mind into activity! They are of great use.

And who say I am always right?

Actually, I enjoy your post. I loved that "oh snap....." post of yours. You had me rolling on the floor!

Taurkon · 07-12-2007, 10:21 AM

This is an interesting discussion topic that I feel represents issues that will continue to press their way into the spotlights of western society.

To me, there are a few questions that are being raised.

1. How much freedom do we continue to afford citizens.

As more and more immigrants come to countries such as the US, there will be continued pressure on society to grant these people special rights due to their culture and religions that are not the main stay in western society. This brings me to the next question:

2. What is the long term impact of granting each diverse cultural and religious group their own freedoms that they enjoyed in their birth country?

Countries such as the United States and Canada were formed on the basic principles of Christianity. These principles, and the values that the majority of North Americans have been raised with differ greatly from culture such as those from the middle east. Can a melting pot of such diverse cultures co-exist for the long haul? Is the risk worth the potential reward?

3. If a line needs to be drawn, where is that line to exist and when is the best time to draw it.

I do believe that the United States has been a world leader for the greater part of their existance due in part to the moral values of it's people. This includes the freedoms people have enjoyed, and the values of the people based on Judeo-Christian teachings.

I have no issues with allowing people to practice their own religion on their own time, but should not be introduced into general society, especially in schools and other public venues. Is this a statement based on fear? Absolutely. But, I also look at countries that are predominantly muslim, and I don't see any shining examples that I would wish my country modeled after. Based on educated observations, I feel our societies wheel is not broken, and fear that may change in the future.

Some times (often times), political correctness is our fear of standing up for our beliefs and siding with our convictions.

Allowing muslims to pray in public schools is where I choose to draw my line. No apologies here!

BH Khan · 07-12-2007, 10:36 AM

I agree...as a Muslim I can say that prayers can be conducted after school hours at home. There is no need to pray at school or during active school hours (class time); as a Muslim, if you're bound with important work - such as education - then you can delay prayers.

**Officer of Engineers** · 07-12-2007, 11:03 AM

You two forgot about being a student during exam times.

glyn · 07-12-2007, 11:08 AM

[quote=Taurkon;389166]

Countries such as the United States and Canada were formed on the basic principles of Christianity.

Purely because the first settlers came from Europe where Christianity was the main religion. As these were mostly British this is also the reason for the language of North America.

These principles, and the values that the majority of North Americans have been raised with differ greatly from culture such as those from the middle east. Can a melting pot of such diverse cultures co-exist for the long haul? Is the risk worth the potential reward?

I yield to the temptation of a one-word answer. NO!

FibrillatorD · 07-12-2007, 13:15 PM

Quote:

The district cites Department of Education guidelines on prayer:

“Where school officials have a practice of excusing students from class on the basis of parents' requests for accommodation of non-religious needs, religiously motivated requests for excusal may not be accorded less favorable treatment.”

The midday prayer for Muslims here generally falls between 1 and 2 p.m., North said, and that is before the school day ends.

“What is unique about this request is the specificity of the religious requirement that a prayer be offered at a certain time on the clock,” he said.

North went on to say, “The district's legal obligation in response to a request that a prayer must be performed at a particular time is to treat that request the same as it would treat a student's request to receive an insulin shot at a particular time.”

Mefleh, the Minneapolis Arabic instructor, said he allows his Muslim students to pray at the end of class during the monthlong observance of Ramadan, Islam's holiest period.

“Some accommodation has to come from both sides,” he said. “I just tell them prayer is good. Class is good, too. Your time is precious. You have to come to an agreement with them without making a big fuss. If you want to pray, I understand, but I don't want to interrupt the class too much.”

I agree with North and the District completely. Even if there are a hundred students whose religion (or parents) require them to pray at a given time - or 100 different times - then let them, just like schools make other medical or family accommodations. Students who don't request the accommodation, non-Muslims or Muslims who can wait to pray, like BH Khan, should not have to twiddle their thumbs in the meantime.

Guardian · 07-12-2007, 13:40 PM

There was a state supreme court case out of Georgia in the late '90s (I can't remember the name of the case). The case concerned a public school alotting a 5 min moment of silence for "prayer, meditation, or free thinking." A parent group filed complaints against the school district and the case made it to the higher courts. The moment of silence was declared unconstitutional because the state legislature "had no clear, secular legislative purpose" in instituting a moment of silence. The ruling declared that this moment of silence was intended to bolster Christian values and prayer in public schools, eventhough it was for prayer, meditation, or thinking.

I do not care if Muslims get a 15 min break for prayer. I admire their dedication to their faith. But perhaps this prayer could be done during lunch or recess. If exceptions are made the door will be wide open for other religious groups to demand such rights. Christians could start asking for time off during the day to pray. Any other religion could as well, I suppose.

It is a shame to say, but religion in public schools is a slippery slope that should just be avoided. The entangling of religion and state is dangerous for both parties involved. When one particular religion is given a specific preference (like prayer-time or holidays) it borders the line of violating the establishment clause fo the 1st amendment. However, not allowing Muslims time to pray is a violation of the free exercise clause of the 1st. This issue (prayer in schools, evolution/intelligent design, Nativity Scenes, etc) is SUCH a gray area of modern politics. I am an evangelical Christian so i do not mind displays of religion (from any religion...I actually enjoy seeing Muslim, jewish, Christian, whatever religion's displays and actions). But as a critical, progressive thinker I must draw the line and agree with lawmakers that is better for everyone if religion stays out of public life (politics, schools, courts, etc). [By public I don't mean 'in public.' I mean out of publicly funded institutions]

BH Khan · 07-12-2007, 19:16 PM

I think prayers could be allowed during non-active school hours such as lunch, recess, and an area could be made for privacy and stuff. However even in Islam, there is no need to pray at the stated time when one is busy with education or work. Students should NOT miss out learning time, and special exemptions should not be made on the basis of religion or culture. One should be able to stay true to their faith by making concessions for the greater society, IMO.

07-12-2007, 00:44 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,268 Country:	Great stuff. A huge melting pot is what is acclaimed the US to be. But watch that it does not melt the US. Test the water before it boils over. Christmas is "Happy Holidays". That stumped me! Now, go ban beef. The Hindus don't take it! Ban non kosher stuff. Jews only take kosher! Get halal meat. The Moslems only take halal. Or just become vegetarians. Saves all the problems! __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA Last edited by Ray : 07-12-2007 at 00:46 AM.

07-12-2007, 03:12 AM	#8 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,268 Country:	And I throw the bait?! No, I don't think you go tangential. You are quite devoted to your views, some of which I don't agree, but then your views do challenge the mind into activity! They are of great use. And who say I am always right? Actually, I enjoy your post. I loved that "oh snap....." post of yours. You had me rolling on the floor! Last edited by Ray : 07-12-2007 at 03:14 AM.

07-12-2007, 11:03 AM	#11 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 16,662 Country:	You two forgot about being a student during exam times. __________________ Chimo

07-12-2007, 11:08 AM	#12 (permalink)
glyn *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-15-06 Location: Penzance, Cornwall UK Posts: 6,886	[quote=Taurkon;389166] Countries such as the United States and Canada were formed on the basic principles of Christianity. Purely because the first settlers came from Europe where Christianity was the main religion. As these were mostly British this is also the reason for the language of North America. These principles, and the values that the majority of North Americans have been raised with differ greatly from culture such as those from the middle east. Can a melting pot of such diverse cultures co-exist for the long haul? Is the risk worth the potential reward? I yield to the temptation of a one-word answer. NO! __________________ Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

07-12-2007, 13:40 PM	#14 (permalink)
Guardian Regular Join Date: 02-08-07 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 56 Country:	There was a state supreme court case out of Georgia in the late '90s (I can't remember the name of the case). The case concerned a public school alotting a 5 min moment of silence for "prayer, meditation, or free thinking." A parent group filed complaints against the school district and the case made it to the higher courts. The moment of silence was declared unconstitutional because the state legislature "had no clear, secular legislative purpose" in instituting a moment of silence. The ruling declared that this moment of silence was intended to bolster Christian values and prayer in public schools, eventhough it was for prayer, meditation, or thinking. I do not care if Muslims get a 15 min break for prayer. I admire their dedication to their faith. But perhaps this prayer could be done during lunch or recess. If exceptions are made the door will be wide open for other religious groups to demand such rights. Christians could start asking for time off during the day to pray. Any other religion could as well, I suppose. It is a shame to say, but religion in public schools is a slippery slope that should just be avoided. The entangling of religion and state is dangerous for both parties involved. When one particular religion is given a specific preference (like prayer-time or holidays) it borders the line of violating the establishment clause fo the 1st amendment. However, not allowing Muslims time to pray is a violation of the free exercise clause of the 1st. This issue (prayer in schools, evolution/intelligent design, Nativity Scenes, etc) is SUCH a gray area of modern politics. I am an evangelical Christian so i do not mind displays of religion (from any religion...I actually enjoy seeing Muslim, jewish, Christian, whatever religion's displays and actions). But as a critical, progressive thinker I must draw the line and agree with lawmakers that is better for everyone if religion stays out of public life (politics, schools, courts, etc). [By public I don't mean 'in public.' I mean out of publicly funded institutions] __________________ The history of the world is but the biography of great men. -Thomas Carlyle Last edited by Guardian : 07-12-2007 at 13:42 PM.

07-12-2007, 01:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
gunnut *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-27-06 Location: DPRK, Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 9,886 Country:	That's weird, how did I double post a thread? Can a mod please combine these 2 threads? One thread has the link to the story, the other one has Brigadier Ray's reply (longer than the one in the thread with the link). Thanks.

07-12-2007, 01:20 AM	#4 (permalink)
Aby The Liberal Banished Join Date: 07-11-07 Location: Seoul Posts: 28 Country:	I find it disturbing that in the name of civil liberties, multi-culturalism and such, religious excess is done in state run schools. This is bound to have an effect on the children, in the form of glorification and promotion of religion. I like the strong stance of Chiraq's France and present Germany on that.

07-12-2007, 02:13 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,268 Country:	Hey Gunnut, Your story and comments are longer than what I have written. Mine is in point form so that it is easy to read and to avoid half****ed comebacks! Anyway, got to go. The shrill cry calls the faithful to prayers!

07-12-2007, 10:21 AM	#9 (permalink)
Taurkon Regular Join Date: 12-05-06 Location: Calgary, Ab Posts: 102 Country:	This is an interesting discussion topic that I feel represents issues that will continue to press their way into the spotlights of western society. To me, there are a few questions that are being raised. 1. How much freedom do we continue to afford citizens. As more and more immigrants come to countries such as the US, there will be continued pressure on society to grant these people special rights due to their culture and religions that are not the main stay in western society. This brings me to the next question: 2. What is the long term impact of granting each diverse cultural and religious group their own freedoms that they enjoyed in their birth country? Countries such as the United States and Canada were formed on the basic principles of Christianity. These principles, and the values that the majority of North Americans have been raised with differ greatly from culture such as those from the middle east. Can a melting pot of such diverse cultures co-exist for the long haul? Is the risk worth the potential reward? 3. If a line needs to be drawn, where is that line to exist and when is the best time to draw it. I do believe that the United States has been a world leader for the greater part of their existance due in part to the moral values of it's people. This includes the freedoms people have enjoyed, and the values of the people based on Judeo-Christian teachings. I have no issues with allowing people to practice their own religion on their own time, but should not be introduced into general society, especially in schools and other public venues. Is this a statement based on fear? Absolutely. But, I also look at countries that are predominantly muslim, and I don't see any shining examples that I would wish my country modeled after. Based on educated observations, I feel our societies wheel is not broken, and fear that may change in the future. Some times (often times), political correctness is our fear of standing up for our beliefs and siding with our convictions. Allowing muslims to pray in public schools is where I choose to draw my line. No apologies here!

07-12-2007, 10:36 AM	#10 (permalink)
BH Khan New Member Join Date: 01-03-07 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 14 Country:	I agree...as a Muslim I can say that prayers can be conducted after school hours at home. There is no need to pray at school or during active school hours (class time); as a Muslim, if you're bound with important work - such as education - then you can delay prayers.

07-12-2007, 19:16 PM	#15 (permalink)
BH Khan New Member Join Date: 01-03-07 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 14 Country:	I think prayers could be allowed during non-active school hours such as lunch, recess, and an area could be made for privacy and stuff. However even in Islam, there is no need to pray at the stated time when one is busy with education or work. Students should NOT miss out learning time, and special exemptions should not be made on the basis of religion or culture. One should be able to stay true to their faith by making concessions for the greater society, IMO.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Pakistan ,Two Nation Theory and a few lies	Samudra	Warfare in the Modern Age	131	01-11-2008 05:16 AM
Muslim prayers in school debated	gunnut	Political Discussions	1	07-12-2007 00:40 AM
Christians besieged in Pakistan	Tronic	International Politics	26	06-06-2007 23:51 PM
Topic For Hongkongfeuy	lemontree	Political Discussions	21	09-09-2005 02:15 AM