Bigfella

The original premise of this post - that poor Russia is the victim of US interference, something it would NEVER do to other nations - is actually funny.

Lets not bother about re-hashing the Cold War. No one emerges with clean hands from that conflict, though ultimately America was on the side of right.

Instead, lets take a little look at the pot that is hurling accusations at the kettle here. The ascencion of Putin to power in Russia marks a definite end to Russia's brief experiment with democracy. He runs a dictatorship. The state hounds some potential political opponents & murders others. It controls the media to limit criticism. There is more to democracy than just the occasional election.

Then there is the ongoing interference in former Russian Republics & the slaughter in Chechenya. I can't recall exactly which former Repubilcs still have Russian troops on their soil, But I'm pretty sure Georgia & one or two Central Asian Republics do, while the mafiocracy of 'Transdnistria' is an abomination that only survives due to Moscow's support.

Ever wonder why the former nations of the Warsaw Pact were so keen to join NATO & the EU? Know any who are glad they were on the Russian side of the line when WW2 ended? They know what it is like to be under Moscow's thumb & they don't plan to go back. Many former Republics are doing precisely the same for the same reasons. Of course they want US support. I would.

What Putin is whining about is that American influence means that he can't re-establish the old Soviet Empire, or some equivalent. What he is guaranteeing by word & deed is that Russia's former victims will continue to look to the biggest kid on the block for backup. Perhaps when Putin established a democracy capable of treating its neighbours as equals he will find American 'imperialism' melts away.

MrFirst

They certainly didn't exist regardless of your opinion as they were a part of USSR at 1945 to 1991. As far as I understand the issue between Parihaka and Gamerclub was about the US "countering of Soviet encroachment" that took place exactly during this period. That's why I wondered what are these countries doing in the list?

Archer

Oh they leave of their own volition. One thing about lefties is that for all their dripping sanctimony, the lure of lucre is a mighty thing and they are all too willing to join up with all them nasty places they whine about.
And to their leaving India and going elsewhere...all I can say is Godspeed!!
Of course being in Canada, he will look down upon Indians from the tip of his aristo nose, but thats fine..

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Archer

Pshaw, your lefties are kiddies compared to the true believers.

Berkis

It seems that for you 1945 is a magic number around which live still rolls down .

Soviet Union was established 1922 and the Baltic states were occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940.

Occupation of Baltic states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Usus magister est optimus

MrFirst

No, it seems to me that Parihaka and Gamerclub were talking about the time after 1945. Because if we are going deeper to the past, we'll find a lot of such US "destabilizations", there were a plenty of them - several military actions against Latin American countries, attack on Philippines, Cuba and so on. And, of course, intervention to Russia during the civil war. Then the "US list" will be simply close to endless.

xerxes

there are more and inlcuding Afghanistan and Mongolia, with Mongolia being USSR's first satellite and Afghanistan being USSR's second satellite chronologically, and again in 1978 and 1979 with fall of Hafizullah Amin and rise of Najubullah, the Soviet involvment is clear

.... but as a side comment and unrelated to the present discussion, Romania and Yoguslavia never attained full satalitization by the Soviet regime and held considerable autonomy. Samething with North Korea, though after the Korean War its alligence went to its asiatic neigbour (PRC) rather then USSR.

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If we contrast the rapid progress of this mischievous discovery of gunpowder with the slow and laborious advances of reason, science, and the arts of peace, a philosopher, according to his temper, will laugh or weep at the folly of mankind. - Edward Gibbon

MrFirst

What's that if not a pure imperialism?

GVChamp

I prefer to think of it as "defending a minority from a government that has attempted to commit genocide."

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MrFirst

That's a question of definitions, how to call this or that. In Serbia the US was "defending minority", in Iraq the US was "defending democracy", in Poland the US is going to defend Europe from non-existing Iranian inter-continental missiles, in Iran they are defending peace all over the world.
Though if anyone else anywhere attempted to "defend minority" by the same way, he would be immediately accused at every sin, not mentioning the fact that defending minorities with bombings would transform the world into the hell.
As for "defending a minority from a government that has attempted to commit genocide", there are some questions.
Where is this "government" and where is that "minority", that has already become a majority? Hasn't the government changed in Serbia? Isn't the current government democratic? Are they not discussing the issue of joining to EU? So, who are you defending from??? From the government that long for joining to EU?

Parihaka

The point is, as Bigfella put far more precisely than me, that while Putin may accuse America of imperialism, in fact both America and Russia have been at it since their respective countries began.
All this palaver over U.S.A. bad, destablising, propping up regimes etc ignores all the other equally scurrilous players in the game, from Britain to Eritrea. It is at best disingenuous and speaks volumes about those who can only see 'their sides' point of view.

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In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
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MrFirst

So, when the US speaks about others everything is OK.
When Russia or any other country speaks - its is disingenuous.
Your point is clear.

Parihaka

My point is, you are more than capable of seeing America's faults. You seem completely incapable of seeing Russia's.
I'm not American. I come from a pissy little country in the south Pacific that either America or Russia would swat in an instant if it suited you to do so, so listening to you wail about what 'victims' you are and 'nasty imperialists' frankly makes me laugh out loud.

dave lukins

please tell, why is Britain grossly and indecently abusive

smilingassassin

Ask an American....

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