Ray

EU ready to send China ‘positive signal’ on arms embargo
22.11.2004 - 18:05 CET | By Andrew Beatty

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS – The EU says it is ready to give China a positive signal on lifting its 15-year old arms embargo, despite opposition from human rights campaigners and the US.

Dutch Foreign Minister and current head of the Council, Bernard Bot, told journalists on Monday that the EU is ready to give a "positive signal" at an EU-China summit next month.

"We are ready to give a positive signal as far as the lifting of the embargo is concerned, but ... there remain a number of concerns", he said.

His comments follow a discussion by EU foreign ministers on Monday (22 November), which appears to signal a more flexible position from some EU members.

The UK and some Scandinavian countries had opposed lifting the ban, which came into place following the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989.

However, any outright opposition now seems to have dissipated.

It is expected that any revision of the ban would be coupled with a tightening up of the EU’s code of conduct which governs arms sales which may be enough to get an agreement among EU members.

Diplomats say China may be willing to ratify the UN covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which it signed in 1998.

The EU-China summit takes place on 8 December.

http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=9&aid=17825

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What's up?

Anon

And they wonder WTF we treat them like a bunch of clueless children.

Lucien LaCroix

Oh wow! Ding-dong, the witch is dead!

When is the rest of the world--along with a sizeable portion of America--going to learn that China is not going to give up its political way of life simply because everyone tries to buy them off?

They can ratify all the covenants they want. A wolf remains a wolf, even if it hasn't eaten your sheep.

__________________
"If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."

Anon

"They can ratify all the covenants they want. A wolf remains a wolf, even if it hasn't eaten your sheep."

Well put.

Confed999

Some of those folks were pumping weapons to Saddam, in comparison China is no surprise.

__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

pinetreescanada

Ha I'm so happy I'm telling my friends on the internet. Afterall it is my motherland. And also don't worry too much about China she won't attack any one without a good reason.

mostlymad

why would you be happy that an arms embargo has been lifted, pinetrees?

Good reason? That is rather subjective. Was invading Tibet and killing monks done for a good reason? If so, I'd like to hear it.

Personally, a government that slaughters unarmed, peaceful protesters in the street and doesn't give a damn about the outcry for human rights, a government that will enforce a "single child" law by drowning the second child in a rice paddy in front of the mothers eyes, a country that slaughters peaceful monks while invading Tibet then outlawing the peaceful religion.....I would not sleep easy as to what they would consider "good reason."

Pinestree, it is nice that you feel pride in your heritage. China has a rich culture, but none of us should be blinded by our love of ancestry to the point where we excuse atrocities. I would criticize my own government (and frequently do) when it does not act according to certain rights. My biggest gripe with China is that its own people are not allowed the very freedom you are able to express here: the right to speak your mind, the right to choose and practice whatever religion you want. If you love your motherland, you can always help it to become more freedom based, more humanitarian, even if it is simply by not turning a blind eye to its atrocities while still praising it for its achievements.

Julie

China is Europe's 2nd largest trade partner (US is #1). With the dollar going to an all-time low which is creating havoc for Europe's economy, the UE is looking for a new #1 partner with a strong economy. For this to be successful for EU with China, the embargo has to be lifted.

PaulG

Mostlymad, do you know much about Chinese history, especially the last 200 years? Not that anything in China's history excuses bad behaviour today, that is true for all countries.

However, it is easy to understand why they would ignore the worlds outcry for human rights abuses.

They have been treated very badly and have had to isolate themselves and rebuild thier nation and state after the atrocities of the Europeans, Americans and Japanese.

Why should they listen to outcries. From their perspective things have had to be done to make sure these things havnt happened again. Apart from outside aggression there has always been a threat of warlordism and anarchy in China. That is why they hold onto a tough centralised government system.

Give them time, they are a nation that is progressing in many areas, it may seem slow but its going forward.

Not many people consider these things about China, not many people consider why these less democratic and 'free' countries do the things they do. We won't get anywhere constantly critisising them. This only reminds them of past experiences when the critisizers were doing the killing.

Ray

PaulG,

Are you meaning:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/BOXER.HTM

Officer of Engineers

Hogwash. The Chinese today are estouting the virtures of the Chinese Empire, even including the Mongol Empire as their own (which it is not) and your post is the exact same excuse for the Yugoslav Civil War. I've got to make sure that those damned Serbs/Muslims/Croats will never steal my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfahter's pig again. The current Chinese generation ain't alive, hell even during WWII. They may do alot of hating but they have absolutely no idea what it meant to be alive at that time.

__________________
Chimo

mostlymad

this is no excuse for ignoring the fundamental human rights of their own people. I am not criticising what they do to me or my country, to those nasty Europeans, Americans, and Japanese who have treated them badly. They violate the rights of their own people. Westerners cry out - why don't the Americans do something about this abuse or that abuse in such and such a country? Why Iraq? Well, I believe we shouldn't tolerate the abuse of human rights by any country, including the Chinese, regardless of how rough their history has been.

To establish a more humanitarian system for their own people.

And how does this justify what they did in Tibet and how they pressure other countries - often successfully - in denying the Dalai Lhama access to governmental gathering abroad, even pressuring organizers on the Internaltional Summit for Religions into disallowing him to participate? (oh - he was allowed to attend the dinner, but no discussion groups, nor could he speak)

Should I measure that time in years or dead bodies? I am not being sarcastic, here. really, how many deaths before we say, ok, you should be grown up now?

we should criticize violations of human rights anywhere, under any cirscumstances, regardless of a country's history. By that logic, I could go and commit crimes and defend myself on the excuse that Aboriginals were treated very badly even 50 years ago.

What is wrong with being reminded of past experiences? It is part of growing up, acknowledging that terrible things happen, but we can move on, learn from them, and be more humane so that we do not perpetrate atrocities as a result.

I am not trying to be harsh, here, but I even tell my kids - look at your past, acknowledge the bad that happened, cry for your pain, but never, ever use it as an excuse for bad behaviour, procrastination, or especially to justify hurting others.

Give them a chance to grow up? Not using their past experience as an excuse to kill and torture and limit the freedom of their own people is a good start.

Ray

Colonel,

I think Paul G has a point.

The Chinese are very conscious of their history even though they may appear to be flexible inspite of their trademark inscrutable demeanour.

They are calm, but they don't forget a slight and they can be vicious.

Underestimating them may be dangerous.

Do I underestimate you even though you are in Canada? Nope offence not meant. Just a dig!

mostlymad

Even if this is true (and I'll wait for more knowledgable people here to clarify that), it does not justify brutality or conquest. (I know you aren't saying it does, Ray). 'Cause by that logic, OBL is justified in his attacks since his faction believes they have been treated badly but certain countries.

Ray

Mostlymad,

I am an Indian and so I should have no love lost for the Chinese and should actually be enjoying all Chinese bashing.

That is not the case.

I like hearing a fair analysis without emotions (as far as possible).

If one goes by the Opium War and the Boxer Rebellion, then one realise to waht extent people can go to subjugate the less inferior - militarily.


Now to the OBL question.

OBL is a Saudi. His country has been treated with more fairness than anyone for a variety of reasons inspite of the fact that Saudi Arbia should have been kicked hard with the camel hoof long ago and sent to Kingdom Come.

As far as Moslem fundamentalists are concerned, it got a fillip by the US funding and arming them in Afghanistan against the Soviets. They smelt blood. They remember Sallahuddin and the Crusades and the Islamic conquest that spread around the world. They thought they would rule the world again with their new found tricks. They are man eating Tigers on the prowl.

So, if the fundamentalist are wreaking havoc, why blame OBL alone?

He and the fundamentalists are Frankensteins! Get me? What is the point of the scientist who made Frankenstein now shouting 'NO Fair?'

The antidote selected is not the answer.

Ponder.