DICK...Cheney - Page 2

**astralis** · 01-31-2007, 15:41 PM

gunnut,

where at? i used to live in irvine and san diego.

i was shocked to hear that there were more dems than republicans living in irvine.

Dreadnought · 01-31-2007, 15:52 PM

Ah this article is nothing but sour grapes for when they blindsided Clinton and showed him to be the horses ass he was. But they had to stoop to Cheyney's children. I love the left all they do is *****, cry, pout, and slander. Oh and lets not forget make our troops second guess why they are there.

As we all saw the rightious left protesting the War along with "Hanoi c**t Fonda" at the helm. Her open mouth is a perfect waste of a "old" latrine.

And these are the people we want in office in the future?

All the criticisms...but yet no plan just moronic criticisms.

"Point being, Clinton was also focused on Iraq and ignored al-Qaeda."

HighSea, You should know better then to fib..Remember Iraq and all the terrorist troubles wasnt until Bush came into office and started all of this.

Ever seem to notice that those that protest the war have not very often served even in times of complete peace?

Ray · 01-31-2007, 16:01 PM

Quote:

Britain's dirty secret

David Leigh and John Hooper
Thursday March 6, 2003
The Guardian

A chemical plant which the US says is a key component in Iraq's chemical warfare arsenal was secretly built by Britain in 1985 behind the backs of the Americans, the Guardian can disclose.

Documents show British ministers knew at the time that the £14m plant, called Falluja 2, was likely to be used for mustard and nerve gas production.

Senior officials recorded in writing that Saddam Hussein was actively gassing his opponents and that there was a "strong possibility" that the chlorine plant was intended by the Iraqis to make mustard gas. At the time, Saddam was known to be gassing Iranian troops in their thousands in the Iran-Iraq war.

But ministers in the then Thatcher government none the less secretly gave financial backing to the British company involved, Uhde Ltd, through insurance guarantees.

Paul Channon, then trade minister, concealed the existence of the chlorine plant contract from the US administration, which was pressing for controls on such exports.

He also instructed the export credit guarantee department (ECGD) to keep details of the deal secret from the public.

The papers show that Mr Channon rejected a strong plea from a Foreign Office minister, Richard Luce, that the deal would ruin Britain's image in the world if news got out: "I consider it essential everything possible be done to oppose the proposed sale and to deny the company concerned ECGD cover".

The Ministry of Defence also weighed in, warning that it could be used to make chemical weapons.

But Mr Channon, in line with Mrs Thatcher's policy of propping up the dictator, said: "A ban would do our other trade prospects in Iraq no good".

The British taxpayer was even forced to write a compensation cheque for £300,000 to the German-owned company after final checks on the plant, completed in May 1990, were interrupted by the outbreak of the Gulf war.

The Falluja 2 chlorine plant, 50 miles outside Baghdad, near the Habbaniya airbase, has been pinpointed by the US as an example of a factory rebuilt by Saddam to regain his chemical warfare capability.

Last month it featured in Colin Powell's dossier of reasons why the world should go to war against Iraq, which was presented to the UN security council.

Spy satellite pictures of Falluja 2 identifying it as a chemical weapons site were earlier published by the CIA, and a report by Britain's joint intelligence committee, published with Tony Blair's imprimatur last September, also focused on Falluja 2 as a rebuilt plant "formerly associated with the chemical warfare programme".

UN weapons inspectors toured the Falluja 2 plant last December and Hans Blix, the chief inspector, reported to the security council that the chemical equipment there might have to be destroyed.

But until now, the secret of Britain's knowing role in Falluja's construction has remained hidden.

Last night, Uhde Ltd's parent company in Dortmund, Germany, issued a statement confirming that their then UK subsidiary had built Falluja 2 for Iraq's chemical weapons procurement agency, the State Enterprise for Pesticide Production.

A company spokesman said: "This was a normal plant for the production of chlorine and caustic soda. It could not produce other products".

The British government's intelligence at the time, as shown in the documents, was that Iraq, which was having increasing difficulty in obtaining precursor chemicals on the legitimate market, intended to use the chlorine as a feedstock to manufacture such chemicals as epichlorohydrin and phosphorous trichloride. These in turn were used to make mustard gas and nerve agents.

Paul Channon, since ennobled as Lord Kelvedon, was last night holidaying on the Caribbean island of Mustique. He issued a statement through his secretary, who said: "He can't object to the story. So he's got no comment."
Britain's dirty secret | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

And we are to believe the US did not know!

gunnut · 01-31-2007, 16:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralis

gunnut,

where at? i used to live in irvine and san diego.

i was shocked to hear that there were more dems than republicans living in irvine.

I live in Huntington Beach and work in Newport Beach. I play hockey in Irvine.

Ray · 01-31-2007, 16:05 PM

It was not only the Reagan administration that initiated the sale of arms to Baghdad. Billions of dollars worth of raw materials, machinery and equipment, missile technology, and other “dual-use” items were also supplied by West German, French, Italian, British, Swiss and Austrian corporations. German firms even sold Iraq entire factories capable of mass-producing poison gas. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

The destination of most of these materials was Saad 16, near Mosul in northern Iraq. Western intelligence agencies had long known that the sprawling complex was Iraq's main ballistic missile development center. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

The Reagan administration also asked other countries to fuel the Iraqi war machine. In 1983, Reagan asked Italy’s Prime Minister Guilo Andreotti to sell weapons to Iraq early in its war with Iran. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

Just four months after the attack on the Kurds, the Reagan administration awarded Bechtel Corporation with a contract to build a huge petrochemical plant that would give the Hussein regime the capacity to generate chemical weapons. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

On September 8, 1988, the Senate passed the Prevention of Genocide Act, which would have imposed sanctions on the Hussein regime. Immediately, the Reagan administration announced its opposition to the bill, calling it “premature.” The White House used its influence to stall the bill in the House of Representatives. When Congress did eventually pass the bill, the White House refused to implement it. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

In August 1989, FBI agents raided the Atlanta branch of the Rome-based Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL) and uncovered massive fraud involving the CCC loan guarantee scheme and billions of dollars worth of unauthorized “off-the-books” loans to Iraq. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

BNL Atlanta manager Chris Drougal had used the CCC program to underwrite programs that had nothing to do with agricultural exports. Using this covert set-up, Iraq tried to buy the most hard-to-get components for its nuclear weapons and missile programs on the black market. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

On October 2, 1989, President George Herbert Bush signed the top-secret National Security Decision 26, which declared: “Normal relations between the United States and Iraq would serve our long-term interests and promote stability in both the Gulf and the Middle East. The United States should propose economic and political incentives for Iraq to moderate its behavior and increase our influence with Iraq. … We should pursue, and seek to facilitate, opportunities for United States firms to participate in the reconstruction of the Iraqi economy. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

As public and congressional pressure mounted on the Agriculture Department to end Iraq’s access to CCC loan guarantees, Secretary of State James Baker insisted that Secretary of Agriculture Clayton Yeutter drop his opposition to their continuation. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

In November 1989, Bush approved $1 billion in loan guarantees for Iraq in 1990. In April 1990, more revelations about the BNL scandal convinced the Department of Agriculture to halt Iraq’s CCC loan guarantees. On May 18, National Security Adviser Scowcroft personally intervened to ensure the delivery of the first $500 million transaction of the CCC subsidy for 1990. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

From July 18 to August 1, 1990, the Bush administration approved $4.8 million in advanced technology sales to Iraq. This included Saad 16 and the Iraqi ministry of industry and military industrialization. On August 1, $695,000 worth of advanced data transmission devices were approved. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

On August 2, 1990, The Agriculture Department officially suspended the CCC loan guarantees to Iraq. On that very day, Iraqi tanks and troops attacked Kuwait. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine)

Arming Iraq : how the U.S. and Britain secretly built Saddam's war machine by Mark Phythian

Subjects: Illegal arms transfers -- Iraq. | Illegal arms transfers --United States. | Illegal arms transfers -- Great Britain. | More ...

Find in a Library Arming Iraq : how the U.S. and Britain secretly built Saddam's war machine

Asia Times Online Community and News Discussion - Blair Admits Iraq 'Disaster' (isn't it a débâcle?)

Dreadnought · 01-31-2007, 16:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

And we are to believe the US did not know!

Umm Ray thats an old article..The gentlemen mentioned as owner of that company was tried and convicted of said offense Im pretty sure.

Ray · 01-31-2007, 16:08 PM

Whether old or new, has it been refuted?

**Shek** · 01-31-2007, 16:19 PM

Sir,
This is not offered to dispute the Pythian post, just to place it into its proper context. Empahsis is mine.

Quote:

Review of Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam's War Machine - Middle East Quarterly

Arming Iraq
How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam's War Machine
by Mark Phythian
Boston: Northeastern University Press, 1997. 325 pp. $30.

Reviewed by Kenneth R. Timmerman

Middle East Quarterly
September 1997

Yet another book on the arming of Saddam Husayn? What else is there to learn about "Iraqgate" that hasn't already come out? The short answer is, very little-at least, not here. Phythian's main thesis in Arming Iraq is very familiar: the United States and the United Kingdom built Saddam's war machine and then conspired to cover-up the tracks when it became too embarrassing. There is voluminous evidence on the public record, much of which Phythian has reviewed, to document the U.S. and British roles in building up Saddam's war machine. But in his effort to prove his central thesis, Phythian misses the larger picture, for German companies were by far the greatest supporter of Saddam Husayn's unconventional weapons programs. To write an account of the arming of Iraq that only parenthetically mentions the German contribution is at best partial.

Phythian focuses on the Scott Commission report, a 5-volume official report issued in February 1996 that investigates British exports to Iraq. The report lays out in new and astonishing detail the ambiguous and often contradictory role of Britain's Special Intelligence Services in monitoring Iraq's arms and technology procurement networks. By far the most interesting revelations of this book involve the strange persecution of the directors of a British munitions firm, Astra Holdings Plc. The company's directors were fired and then arrested for having launched an internal investigation into potentially illegal arms sales to Iran and Iraq by corporate subsidiaries.

Perhaps because he is an academic and not a journalist, Phythian has been unable to discern what is "news" in the Scott Report and what is rehash; and his account includes some pretty silly conclusions. For example, he assumes that the Boskop munitions plant in South Africa was packing shells "apparently for use with the British-built FH-70 howitzer" that ended up in Iraq via Saudi Arabia. There was nothing "apparent" about the operation - that plant was explicitly churning out munitions for Iraq.1 Nor does Phythian review how the mistakes of arming Iraq might have been applied in recent years to Iran, Syria, or China. Despite the hue and cry about learning "the lessons of Iraq," the Western willingness to build up weapons capabilities in these three countries bears all the hallmarks of the Iraqi experience.

1 In early 1985, I visited the Boskop plant, which is in a suburb of Soweto, and saw pallets of munitions en route to Baghdad. I also interviewed the head of Armscor, Piet Marais, who acknowledged the Iraqi G-5 deal. The visit is recounted in my book The Death Lobby: How the West Armed Iraq (Boston, Houghton Mifflin, 1991, pp. 170-172). Phythian repeatedly refers to my book in his footnotes but he either missed this section or wilfully disregarded it in an effort to buttress his central argument that the U.S. and the British governments were primarily responsible for arming Iraq.

Ray · 01-31-2007, 16:25 PM

US Military Assistance to Saddam
Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War
US Military Assistance to Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War - Security Council - Global Policy Forum

1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
Bowling for Columbine : Library : What a Wonderful World

How he US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons
Green Left - Cover Story: How he US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons

Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein:
The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82
Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein

For Whom the Bell Tolls:
Top Ten Ways the US Enabled Saddam Hussein
Informed Comment

How Reagan Armed Saddam with Chemical Weapons
Norm Dixon: How Reagan Armed Saddam with Chemical Weapons

Missing U.S.-Iraq History
The Consortium

It is not the Saddam was an angel. He was a tyrant and a murderer.

However, if for good geostrategic reasons, Saddam was assisted,what of it?

Let us not try to hide a gory and unfortunate part of history just to appears as if one is living in a bed of roses.

Every govt does what is good for its country and it need not be morally angelic!

In these articles read the documents quoted from and just don't dismiss them as that of the liberal left, or far right and other labels that one uses to perfunctorily dismiss ideas and facts that don't appeal!

Shek,

You may be right. I don't dispute that.

However, the issue is not who helped more. The issue is, did the US, amongst others help Saddam or not?

highsea · 01-31-2007, 16:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

I live in Huntington Beach and work in Newport Beach. I play hockey in Irvine.

Gunnut-

I spent 2 months in Newport Beach before heading for points further south. I moored the boat at John Wayne's old house right on the point across from Balboa Island (now owned by Robert Cohen, who also owns the Beverly Hills Four Seasons Hotel). Awesome place- I still have a lot of friends there. There's about a zillion of them little Duffy Boats, lol.

The girls in Newport Beach rock. (I suppose it helped just a little that I was living by myself on a $14 million dollar yacht at the Duke's old place...

)

Being water-bound, my local transportation was a 21' Boston Whaler Center Console skiff. I had no car since I ran the big boat down the coast to get there.

I made friends with a cabbie that owned his own cab. Great guy, he used to run me around bar-hopping, hung out on the boat with me, brought over girls, etc. We made several trips to Tijuana, lol. Love that place...

/hijack off

speedlover1994 · 01-31-2007, 16:49 PM

OK, there seems to be a lot of dispute on this topic.

Agreed, politicians lives are off limits for the news, but that doesn't make it any less appalling!

And as far as the WMD's, Iraq and Afghanistan go, I disagree with the Iraq war, and while all presidents make mistakes, I think the Bush administration is particularily bad.

I understand there will be different opinions, conservative and libral people, and different perspectives, but you still can't dismiss the truth.

There have been so many terror mistakes made by the US, but many of the listed stand out. The US did supply chemicals and other supplies, but so did other countries. The US did not handle many of the recent situations with care, and it shows. It has been proved that information was given to the president with time to spare about 9/11.

**Shek** · 01-31-2007, 17:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedlover1994

It has been proved that information was given to the president with time to spare about 9/11.

Wrong.

There was a general threat about hijacking of airlines. A completely separate plot many years prior about crashing planes into buildings. This is among probably tens of thousands of potential plots/methods. Nothing was connected together at a high enough decision making level to allow any President to prevent 9/11. The fourth branch of government, bureaucracy, was what failed the US.

**Shek** · 01-31-2007, 17:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Shek,

You may be right. I don't dispute that.

However, the issue is not who helped more. The issue is, did the US, amongst others help Saddam or not?

Sir,

There's no doubt that US interests aligned with Iraq in terms of punishing Iran for holding embassy employees hostage for over a year, and so in that context as well as the context of the geopolitical contest against communism, the US did indeed help Saddam's regime.

However, that is not the same as stating that the US knowingly aided Iraq towards its goal of developing and employing WMD, and as such it was at least a de facto official policy. I'm not stating that this didn't occur, just that I don't know and that selling dual use items isn't necessarily proof of knowing that it's going towards WMD.

Ray · 01-31-2007, 17:52 PM

Quote:

Shek,

That is a very valid point.

Likewise, many other countries too were unaware what the end use is to be for sure, even if they had an inkling.

Therefore, it remains in the grey area.

To add, in international politics, it is economics and strategic interest which governs govt actions.

Or else, how do we find the world over yesterday's friend, today's enemy and today's enemy, tomorrow's friend?

Therefore, I find both indignant protestation of high morality and scathing accusation a trifle odd and delightfully humorous.

No country in the world is above board.

All have feet of clay!

omon · 01-31-2007, 21:40 PM

i hate reporters, they are bigger liars than politicyans. always twist your words. never give you a full picture.

01-31-2007, 15:41 PM	#16 (permalink)
astralis *Foreign Service* Moderator Lei Feng Protege Join Date: 08-23-05 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 2,944 Country:	gunnut, where at? i used to live in irvine and san diego. i was shocked to hear that there were more dems than republicans living in irvine. __________________ Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present. -Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

01-31-2007, 15:52 PM	#17 (permalink)
Dreadnought *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 05-12-05 Posts: 5,319 Country:	Ah this article is nothing but sour grapes for when they blindsided Clinton and showed him to be the horses ass he was. But they had to stoop to Cheyney's children. I love the left all they do is ***, cry, pout, and slander. Oh and lets not forget make our troops second guess why they are there. As we all saw the rightious left protesting the War along with "Hanoi ct Fonda" at the helm. Her open mouth is a perfect waste of a "old" latrine. And these are the people we want in office in the future? All the criticisms...but yet no plan just moronic criticisms. "Point being, Clinton was also focused on Iraq and ignored al-Qaeda." HighSea, You should know better then to fib..Remember Iraq and all the terrorist troubles wasnt until Bush came into office and started all of this. Ever seem to notice that those that protest the war have not very often served even in times of complete peace? __________________ Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure. Last edited by Dreadnought : 01-31-2007 at 16:04 PM.

01-31-2007, 16:05 PM	#20 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,144 Country:	It was not only the Reagan administration that initiated the sale of arms to Baghdad. Billions of dollars worth of raw materials, machinery and equipment, missile technology, and other “dual-use” items were also supplied by West German, French, Italian, British, Swiss and Austrian corporations. German firms even sold Iraq entire factories capable of mass-producing poison gas. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) The destination of most of these materials was Saad 16, near Mosul in northern Iraq. Western intelligence agencies had long known that the sprawling complex was Iraq's main ballistic missile development center. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) The Reagan administration also asked other countries to fuel the Iraqi war machine. In 1983, Reagan asked Italy’s Prime Minister Guilo Andreotti to sell weapons to Iraq early in its war with Iran. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) Just four months after the attack on the Kurds, the Reagan administration awarded Bechtel Corporation with a contract to build a huge petrochemical plant that would give the Hussein regime the capacity to generate chemical weapons. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) On September 8, 1988, the Senate passed the Prevention of Genocide Act, which would have imposed sanctions on the Hussein regime. Immediately, the Reagan administration announced its opposition to the bill, calling it “premature.” The White House used its influence to stall the bill in the House of Representatives. When Congress did eventually pass the bill, the White House refused to implement it. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) In August 1989, FBI agents raided the Atlanta branch of the Rome-based Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL) and uncovered massive fraud involving the CCC loan guarantee scheme and billions of dollars worth of unauthorized “off-the-books” loans to Iraq. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) BNL Atlanta manager Chris Drougal had used the CCC program to underwrite programs that had nothing to do with agricultural exports. Using this covert set-up, Iraq tried to buy the most hard-to-get components for its nuclear weapons and missile programs on the black market. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) On October 2, 1989, President George Herbert Bush signed the top-secret National Security Decision 26, which declared: “Normal relations between the United States and Iraq would serve our long-term interests and promote stability in both the Gulf and the Middle East. The United States should propose economic and political incentives for Iraq to moderate its behavior and increase our influence with Iraq. … We should pursue, and seek to facilitate, opportunities for United States firms to participate in the reconstruction of the Iraqi economy. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) As public and congressional pressure mounted on the Agriculture Department to end Iraq’s access to CCC loan guarantees, Secretary of State James Baker insisted that Secretary of Agriculture Clayton Yeutter drop his opposition to their continuation. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) In November 1989, Bush approved $1 billion in loan guarantees for Iraq in 1990. In April 1990, more revelations about the BNL scandal convinced the Department of Agriculture to halt Iraq’s CCC loan guarantees. On May 18, National Security Adviser Scowcroft personally intervened to ensure the delivery of the first $500 million transaction of the CCC subsidy for 1990. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) From July 18 to August 1, 1990, the Bush administration approved $4.8 million in advanced technology sales to Iraq. This included Saad 16 and the Iraqi ministry of industry and military industrialization. On August 1, $695,000 worth of advanced data transmission devices were approved. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) On August 2, 1990, The Agriculture Department officially suspended the CCC loan guarantees to Iraq. On that very day, Iraqi tanks and troops attacked Kuwait. (Mark Phythian, Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine) Arming Iraq : how the U.S. and Britain secretly built Saddam's war machine by Mark Phythian Subjects: Illegal arms transfers -- Iraq. \| Illegal arms transfers --United States. \| Illegal arms transfers -- Great Britain. \| More ... Find in a Library Arming Iraq : how the U.S. and Britain secretly built Saddam's war machine Asia Times Online Community and News Discussion - Blair Admits Iraq 'Disaster' (isn't it a débâcle?) Last edited by Ray : 01-31-2007 at 16:07 PM.

01-31-2007, 16:25 PM	#24 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,144 Country:	US Military Assistance to Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War US Military Assistance to Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War - Security Council - Global Policy Forum 1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians. Bowling for Columbine : Library : What a Wonderful World How he US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons Green Left - Cover Story: How he US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein: The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984 National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82 Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein For Whom the Bell Tolls: Top Ten Ways the US Enabled Saddam Hussein Informed Comment How Reagan Armed Saddam with Chemical Weapons Norm Dixon: How Reagan Armed Saddam with Chemical Weapons Missing U.S.-Iraq History The Consortium It is not the Saddam was an angel. He was a tyrant and a murderer. However, if for good geostrategic reasons, Saddam was assisted,what of it? Let us not try to hide a gory and unfortunate part of history just to appears as if one is living in a bed of roses. Every govt does what is good for its country and it need not be morally angelic! In these articles read the documents quoted from and just don't dismiss them as that of the liberal left, or far right and other labels that one uses to perfunctorily dismiss ideas and facts that don't appeal! Shek, You may be right. I don't dispute that. However, the issue is not who helped more. The issue is, did the US, amongst others help Saddam or not? Last edited by Ray : 01-31-2007 at 16:29 PM.

01-31-2007, 16:49 PM	#26 (permalink)
speedlover1994 Patron Join Date: 01-23-07 Posts: 184	OK, there seems to be a lot of dispute on this topic. Agreed, politicians lives are off limits for the news, but that doesn't make it any less appalling! And as far as the WMD's, Iraq and Afghanistan go, I disagree with the Iraq war, and while all presidents make mistakes, I think the Bush administration is particularily bad. I understand there will be different opinions, conservative and libral people, and different perspectives, but you still can't dismiss the truth. There have been so many terror mistakes made by the US, but many of the listed stand out. The US did supply chemicals and other supplies, but so did other countries. The US did not handle many of the recent situations with care, and it shows. It has been proved that information was given to the president with time to spare about 9/11. __________________ "you have enemies, good. That means you stood up for something, sometime in your life"

01-31-2007, 16:08 PM	#22 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,144 Country:	Whether old or new, has it been refuted?

01-31-2007, 21:40 PM	#30 (permalink)
omon Field mechanik *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-01-06 Location: bk Posts: 1,925 Country:	i hate reporters, they are bigger liars than politicyans. always twist your words. never give you a full picture.

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