Parihaka

Could it be that you think this because your European? That maybe the much larger populations in Asia don't matter because they're, well, Asian?

Officer of Engineers

You do know that Madame Chiang Kei Shek was making the rounds (and I mean making the rounds).

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Chimo

gamercube

Three decades ago from 2006 = 1976, not 1948. In 1976, how many countries had a literacy rate of above 90%? How many could go into space, build fighters en masse etc etc? I admit that China has achieved much more in the past 50 years than India has. But under a dictatorial government, it is also much easier to achieve things than it is under a democratic setup. For example, there hasn't been a single famine in post independence India. Compare that with the millions that died in the great famine in China. Both systems of governments have their advantages and disadvantages.

Besides, like I said above, these standards that you're listing are completely arbitrary. They change according to time, and hence, it is foolish to use them to compare any one country. Just five years ago, China's literacy rate may have been below 90%. Does that mean that its permanent seat should have been taken away? You're using the literacy rate....to prove what? That the Chinese people are better off than the Indian people? What about the millions of Chinese that have died in Mao's "Great Leap Forward", and hundreds of thousands of others who have been persecuted as political prisoners? What about those who were displaced by the Three Gorges dam, and weren't provided adequate compensation for their land?

When a dam of even a fraction of the size of the Three Gorges dam came up for construction in India (The Sardar Sarovar Project), it has been held up for decades by protests and litigations from those likely to be affected. In China, they'd probably just line those people up and shoot them en masse.

So no, I don't think that on average, the Chinese people are better off than the Indians.

Like Tronic said, the arms race was started the moment the first atom bomb was built. India has always tried for global nuclear disarmament, but since none of the nuclear powers were willing to support her, she had to develop her own nukes, because in today's world, nukes are the only guarantor of safety. Why do you think India never signed the NPT r the CTBT? It was not because we had some kind of ulterior motive to proliferate nukes to other countries, but because the NPT created a world comprised of nuclear haves and have nots-it effectively legitimised the nuclear weapons of the P5, while introducing no binding clauses on them to disarm within a specific time frame. That was what was outrageous for us, and hence we never signed that discriminatory treaty. Same goes for the CTBT. When that treaty came up for discussion, no one was willing to ban computer simulations of nuclear explosions, and hence, all means of testing had not been banned. So this still left a escape route for the P5, which could keep "virtually" testing more and more lethal designs of their bombs.

That has to be either the height of ignorance, or wilful neglect on your part. Pakistan and NK build tanks through licence, something that India has been doing since the 1960s. They have not yet come up with their own indigenous tank or any other military component. As for Israel, the US has been their primary collaborator and source of funding since 1948, so it is hardly a surprise that they have their "own" weapons. If India had collaborated jointly with Russia since the 1940s, I'm sure, we would have had a very large base of our own military equipment.

The CIA factbook's figures are outdated. It's almost 2007 now, not 2005. On another page, it lists the biggest economies by PPP, and India is 6th, which is clearly wrong. India is the world's 4th largest economy in PPP terms, after the US, Japan and China. Just google it if you don't believe me. These are the real figures for 2005:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/...NGDPD&grp=0&a=

Besides, like I said, in PPP terms, which is the real measure of any country's economy, the Indian economy is far ahead of Russia. The nominal GDP figures don't really do justice because in India, you can get much more for a dollar than you can in the US. I remember just 4 years ago, I could get 4 square meals in my college canteen in India for 1 US dollar (around Rs 48).

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Hasta la Victoria siempre!

zraver

India and other nations wishing to have a permament seat need to meet what ever arbitrary standards the current members set. Life is arbitrary and unfair, deal with it. Until India can match the P5 across a broad spectrum of areas that point directlry to power and prestige shes not going to get a seat.

It can be argued tha tthe world letting India gettign away with its nuclear program le ddirectly to the current 3rd world arms race. It damn sure backfired and isolated India from the west and the billions spent on the weapons wer enot spent on the economy.

It assembles Kits for final production, which is why the Arjun had to start from scratch. Ther eis a world of differance between licence build and kit build. India can't even make tracks for the Arjun after 20+ years of development.

And PPP is a joke, it totally breaks down once you move from subsistnace based economies into true consumer based societies.

How much does a core-duo with 1 gig of ram computer cost you, airfare, a new car built to Amrican or European standards?

I bet if I go to the poorer nations like ohh Luxemburg, Holland, Canada, Austrailia etc I will find higher levels of cellphones, cars, computers, stocks, insurance etc. Guess what it's not the 12th century anymore and you need more than 2 water buffaloe and a few acres under cultivation to be considered wealthy. Technology is the new yard stick, and in this India is sadly lacking compared to developed nations.

TopHatter

Personal attacks, particularly against someone like Officer Of Engineers are a one-way ticket out of here.

kams

zraver you are using all wrong examples..

Indias telecom industry is growing upwards of 22%. Every quarter around 6-7 million new Cellphones are being added. This year alone, number of New Cellphones added will exceed entire population of Australia.

India's defence spending is around 2.5% of GDP. At its peak it was around 3.5%. Thats one of the lowest spending by a country surrounded ny unstable govt.

Funny its US and EU with all its hightech farming, High yield seeds, 10s of thousands of hectares of farms, which are heavily subsidizing the farmers. Wonder why?

Computers made in India (local ones not brand named) cost around 20-25% less than what it costs here in US.

For long India followed a economic policy which frowned on Individual wealth creation, shunned creativity, and we paid the price. It took a near economic catostrophy to correct the things. Remember the economic meltdown of South-east asia and what happend to all the export oriented 'Tiger Economies' like South Korea, Malaysia, Thailand etc? Look at how India withstood the storm.



None of these factor matter a damn in deciding the candidate for UNSC.

Tronic

And Pakistani and North Korean tanks are not kit assembled? Heck, even their Al-Khalid is coming in pieces from China. There is also a world of a difference between the Arjun MBT that India is producing then the Med. tanks being built in Pakistan and North Korea's outdated tanks which can't even be considered MBTs...

Not true, the Arjun's tracks could've been built by BHEL, they were simply not given enough time, since initially very little private firms were allowed in. Several Indian private firms even having the technology were kept out. BHEL was asked to build tracks at the last moment, given the short timeframe, they couldn't hence the tracks had to be imported. You have to realize that India had a pro-socialist stance and very little to no private firms were allowed in. Times are changing and the private firms are coming in the limelight, but you cannot expect everything in your face, all in a decade alone. On future projects, Private Indian firms will play a far greater role as they are already coming in the big picture.

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-Touch The Sky With Glory

crooks

I am kinda eurocentric.

I'm surprised with how big this thread got though .

Officer of Engineers

Yes, so how much are 3' Barbies in India?

gunnut

See, others should have worked harder if they wanted a seat.

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"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

kams

Generic version? or Copies? (you won't notice the difference and neither would your daughter) may be Rs 200-300 ($ 4-6)

Officer of Engineers

*** bangs head against wall ***

*** read post again ***

*** bangs head against wall ***

gunnut

How about if you pay him $100 to get 2 dozen Barbies from India at $4 - $6 each? That comes out to be around $150, then add shipping, will still be cheaper than buying stuff here.

Think outsourcing...

Officer of Engineers

No time. Christmas is Monday.

kams

Cool down I have no clue what 'real 3' Barbies'cost in India. But from experince with other 'Branded stuff' (Nike Shoes, Adidas T-Shirts etc etc), some of the stuff rejected by US stores (some quality issue, you won't notice it) end up on streets of Bombay, Delhi or Calcutta at 1/10 th price. Ask Ray to do your next year Christmass Shopping. Or I will tell my wife to do it when she visits India next year. You may get your Rifle afterall.

Risk Factor - No gurantee that we can get the Barbie of same Pink shade your Princess loves .