kams

Cool it dude. Uncalled for comments.

sappersgt

That's it? That's all? I know he's been called a lot worse. Hell, I've been called worse. I was hoping for something a little more original. Maybe with time.

Darn! Ya banned em! Boy are you quick! That was like what, 3 minutes?

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Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
(Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

kams

We still have East and West to look out for

Julie

Yep, and I attempted to soft delete them before OoE read them, but yall brought them back to life.... Smooth moves. Oh, well, I'm going to hang around in here awhile, cause I know he's coming back.

gunnut

My original comment for him stands.

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"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

Officer of Engineers

Oh, I've been called worst and I've done worst. Yet, I wonder how much bending over did he actually did to ignore the fact that he was the one who was unwanted.

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Chimo

Julie

That's okay, but I stand by my edit of the omission because I'm not going to allow those words to remain in any thread in regard to OoE for others to read.

Julie

Better yet, let's see how pissed off he is as to how many computers he's going to run around town attempting to access, to try and get back in, while we of course, don't have to do that.

Sooner, or probably later, he will realize is just easier to find another message board.

Julie

7 minutes.....just so he will know. Hey, I'm rained in today...nothing else to do.

Archer

In the case of branded items, the high levels of disposable incomes amongst the youth nowadays mean that the same prices are demanded in many cases. This is a big issue for many folks, because after all, Indian salaries, despite all the hikes have not kept pace vis a vis the west in conversion terms. The prices are knocked down in retailers outlets, which is basically an euphemism for factory seconds and export rejects. I tried a Nike design in Bangalore (official shop etc), which was a full year out of date vs the US, but it was being sold at the same price. 3500 Rs/- for a pair, which was equivalent to its intro US price at then exchange rates. In the case of the PRC, their acting as the manufacturing house of the world, has meant that they produce a prodigious amount of local ripoffs at a fraction of the price; nodoubt this has helped their local population to increase their standard of living despite wage differentials.

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Karmani Vyapurutham Dhanuhu

My bow is stretched for its task

Archer

Whats going on?

Officer of Engineers

Ok, Archer,

I understand the thrust of this but the details, however, don't lend credence. The UN has particularily been unsuccessful in Kashmir mainly because both sides refused to back down. Now, this is one case where both India and Pakistan had told the UN to screw off ... and the UN's response was ... nadda.

And while we have touted Kosovo and Iraq, the truth is that every war has happenned without UN ok. Sino-Soviet, Sino-VN, Soviet-Afghanistan, Vietnam-Cambodia, Arab-Israeli, Sino-India, India-Pak, and the uncountable number of African Wars. Even the Hutus and the Tutsis thumbed their noses at the UN.

And let's not forget the UN actually doesn't like successes. Gen Jetley was unkindly tossed out of Sierra Leonne after he saved the UN bacon. Instead of expanding UNPROFOR's successes, the UN further restricted military action, prompting NATO to take over.

So, I can't see how the UN can be used to screw India when all India has to do is to thumb her nose at it. What's the UN going to do? Invade?

TopHatter

Northface decided to return, that's all.

Archer

Its not that cut and dry sir, I'll try to explain myself better... India has regarded the UN intervention in Kashmir (started due to Nehrus own mistake of having gone to the UN to begin with) as a very useful toy with which India has been hit with each time relations between the US and India soured. These were also followed up by hearings in the US about India's HR record, about how xyz in India were oppressed. If one talks to any GOI functionary of the time, it bears remarking that a lot of pressure was applied through folks who were not ostensibly directly tied to the US but nevertheless represented "international opinion". India has had to sweat to even maintain the status quo in the UN viz. Pak. Prior to Sept 11, terrorism in J&K was moreorless tagged as an insurgent movement and freedom fighting, despite tons of available proof to the contrary. Simply put, the Kashmir issue has been a good pressure point to push India over. There are many pain points for any developing country, and India has its fair share of them.

Added: The UN has been unsuccessful in Kashmir from the POV of solving the conflict. But from the POV of lending credence to the fact that Kashmir is indeed a boiling point, that it is a "complicated issue", the UN fig leaf has been perfect. Despite decades of crossborder infiltration, despite India hollering from the rooftops, and countless delegations with everything from Humint to sat surveillance photos to confiscated munitions to captured weaponry, the UN and international agencies had classified it as an "indigenous insurgency", more or less. Time after time, Kashmir has been raised in the UN to embarass India, and has put it on the back foot, to even lump it with states such as Iran. Classic pressure tactics. This is invariably followed by tut-tutting editorials about how bad the Kashmiri situation is, and how India must go the extra mile in meeting Pak demands.

Sir, its not about the UN intervening by itself- its about public perception and the impact the UN fig leaf gives. Today, if the Indo-US nuke deal goes through, a lot of doors for India will automatically open, since the US is now dealing with India. Similarly, In the case of the UN, any UN condemnation would serve as an eyewash which would justify harsh/ punitive measures by the US or other nations. The limitations of NAM and the collapse of the Soviet Union made India feel even more vulnerable. As late as a few years back, imaginative proposals for Kashmir (which invariably involve India ceding some territory) were being proposed by US based think tanks with strong ties to the US State Dept. There were proposals that these "ideas" be taken forward with the assistance of the UN. They appeared with predictable regularity each time, Indo-Pak ties hit a low, and New Delhi blew hot. These were coupled with a strong media push in both Brit and US media about Kashmir being a nuclear flashpoint. I am not a conspiracy theorist sir, but its plain and simple power play. The fact that India's decision making elite have singularly lacked the strategic focus of the might makes right dictum, as skilfully practised by the PRC in its unabashed pursuit of what it deems its national interest, has aided its own feeling of being hemmed into a corner. The wars you quote- either they have a big power involved (SC level), or nations which have big powers backing them (such as the Indo-Pak conflict of 71, Arab-Israeli wars), otherwise its pennyfarthing conflicts which the powers couldnt care less about (ethiopia vs eritrea, african tribal wars, bar the Angola conflict). In this case, India is the only nation, of its size and ambitions, which has to depend on other powers to back it when it comes to stating its case to the SC.

Sir, the UN intervention in East Timor, despite how much the actual details supported it, as well as the go-it alone nature of the Iraq conflict, as well as the US attack on Serbia over the KLA, have all been considered by the Indian establishment, as an extension of strong arm tactics and western interests- ie any intervention can be justified provided it meets the wests criteria for intervention. The issue is not of the UN alone thumbing its nose at India; the issue is of India being pressurised by the UN, by the WTO, by trade advisories, by OIC and OPEC- all of these are to different extents old boys clubs with which India has dependencies, and the US exerts influence. The problem is that India and the west, all talk of democracies etc etc apart, have been at loggerheads since independence, in many respects. You know the history. As late as the 80's- the US was deemed to be tacitly supporting the Khalistani insurgency; in case after case, the Pak establishment has been given a clean bill of health by the US SD and UK foreign Min. This despite reams of evidence to the contrary.

In this vein, the UN SC is but an extension of that battleground where Indias interests (its conflict with Pak) have come into direct conflict with the need of several powers to keep Pak going, including the PRC. Even when the US was virtually ignoring Pak in practical terms (weapons transfers etc), during the post Afghan war phase, their SD was still supporting them- official studies of the time for example even wargame US intervention to prevent Indias "hegemon ambitions". In this vein, the lack of a SC seat has hurt India. It has had to rely on other countries- especially Russia to save it from public sanction, and intervene at times. You can imagine how it has grated on India, no support comes free- even if its that of the Soviet Union which wanted India in its bag.

zraver

The points you bring ar eworty of consideration. However India's desire for a seat on the UNSC does not rqual entitlement. Her industrial, sceintific, and industrial base is not up to the level yet. What China or France did way back when doesn't matter, only today does.

To a certain extent India got treated like a third world nation becuase she was. Even if the UN didn't exist the P5 would still be the global power players beucase they are at that level. While the US will probalby be the only hyper-power for the next 50 years the other 4 are still magor powers. India is just an emerging power. Until India catches up and can look the other powers in the eye as an equal she will be looked down upon and bullied to serve thye interests of those more powerful than her. The Rule of Law and civiliised discourse only go so far, at the end of the day its a dog eat dog world.