Outrage as vicar drops 'not multicutural enough' Remembrance Sunday service

Ray · 10-28-2006, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Outrage as vicar drops 'not multicutural enough' Remembrance Sunday service

By ANDREW LEVY Last updated at 22:00pm on 27th October 2006

Comments Reader comments (17)

For decades, smartly dressed veterans and servicemen and women in Wood Green, north London, have proudly packed their parish church for the traditional Remembrance Sunday service.

But this year there will be no such solemn ceremony at St Michael's - because the vicar felt it was not multicultural enough.

Father Colin Coppen decided it was unfair on non-Anglicans to make them attend a church of England service.

Instead he has decreed that soldiers who fought and died for their country will only be remembered during Parish Mass.

If the borough wants to remember its fallen than it should do so outside the church, he says.

The decision was yesterday branded 'disgusting' by members of the Royal British Legion and parishioners, while non-Anglican groups said it was completely unnecessary.

Wood Green RBL chairman Bob King, 68, said:"It's disgusting. That man would not be a vicar if it wasn't for the sacrifices of people who gave their lives for us.

"Hitler and the Germans would be marching across Britain in their jackboots.

"A lot of people like to go to the service - various organisations, as well as individuals.

"In the 1940s and long after the war, we were still a Church of England country and it is still a Church of England church.

"It's all right to have all these faiths but, after all, we are all praying to the same God and they should hold the normal service."

He added: "There's not many ex-servicemen left but everyone goes on about looking after minorities these days, so what about us?"

Jean Gotts, a leading member of the nearby Hornsey branch of the Royal British Legion, said: "It's not any one particular religious observance.

"It is for people to remember those who lost lives in all wars and I feel these people should be remembered."

A parishioner who asked not to be named said : "I have lived here all my life and we have always had the service.

"Families should have somewhere to go and quietly reflect and remember what happened."

The Muslim Council of Britain said it had "absolutely" no objection to Muslims attending Remembrance Sunday services.

"The MCB has attended services and been represented at the annual ceremony at the Cenotaph," a spokeswoman said.

Around 100 Royal British Legion members attended the service at St Michael's last year, along with other faith groups and members of the community.

This year they will have to make do with the traditional open-air service at the local war memorial followed by Parish Mass.

Father Coppen is understood to have taken action in the hope the council would be forced to devise a more "inclusive" form of commemoration.

"This allows the borough council to think how it wants to express and celebrate the contribution that worldwide cultures made to the victory in two world wars without feeling that it necessarily has to conform to the state religion," he said.

However, the Church of England said it supported Remembrance Sunday services.

A spokesman said: "The Church of England remains fully behind them but it is his church and his decision what services take place there.

"If anyone has a problem with it they can always talk to the diocese about it or go to another church."

A Haringey Council spokesman said: "The service has always had representation from different faith groups and communities in the borough.

"We were more than happy to have the service in the church but Father Coppen said he was unable to accommodate us this year.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/...n_page_id=1770

Acutally, because of all this minority hassle everyone has become overly sensitive and PC and so the Vicar.

All he could have done and checked how many non Anglicans had attended the Service in the yesteryears and then made up his mind and given a comparitive statement of the number of veterans and how many attended.

If non Anglican attended in the earlier years, then there would be no reason to cancel the Service.

I also don't buy the Minorities claiming that they have no objection to attending the Service. It is all very easy to say after the fact. Anyway, lets see if the Minorities attend the Mass.

**Parihaka** · 10-28-2006, 16:06 PM

he's not a vicar, he's a politician, and he's using the occasion for political purposes

glyn · 10-28-2006, 16:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parihaka

he's not a vicar, he's a politician, and he's using the occasion for political purposes

It's even more likely that he is so confused with all the political correctness that permeates this disintegrating society that he simply does not know what to do for the best. I am tempted to add "And who can blame him?". I have myself lost the plot about what is happening in this country.

Bluesman · 10-28-2006, 17:39 PM

Another little surrender.

An inch at a time.

Goodbye, Europe.

**Parihaka** · 10-28-2006, 17:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

It's even more likely that he is so confused with all the political correctness that permeates this disintegrating society that he simply does not know what to do for the best. I am tempted to add "And who can blame him?". I have myself lost the plot about what is happening in this country.

Quote:

Father Coppen is understood to have taken action in the hope the council would be forced to devise a more "inclusive" form of commemoration.

In other words he is deliberately using them to promote his liberalist agenda. Don't loose the plot Glyn, blow you nose on this prick, because he deserves it.

PubFather · 10-28-2006, 17:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

It's even more likely that he is so confused with all the political correctness that permeates this disintegrating society that he simply does not know what to do for the best. I am tempted to add "And who can blame him?". I have myself lost the plot about what is happening in this country.

Oh lets not blow this all out of proportion. One excessively PC vicar (proforming a MASS) does not an Islamic invasion make. We are cursed with excessive PC nonsense, but lets not mistake that for a more general problem.

Hari_Om · 10-29-2006, 02:11 AM

Difficult to come to a conclusion on the basis of the posted article.

The key question here :

Is the Borough footing the bill for Remembrance Day service in an Anglican Church to the exclusion of services in the religious establishments of other Religions / Christian sects or not ?

If the Borough is, than the Vicar is right.

If the Borough is not, the Vicar is wrong.

Let it not be forgotten that many ancestors of my Non Anglican fellow Indian citizens laid down their lives for the UK's wars.

PubFather · 10-29-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hari_Om

Difficult to come to a conclusion on the basis of the posted article.

The key question here :

Is the Borough footing the bill for Remembrance Day service in an Anglican Church to the exclusion of services in the religious establishments of other Religions / Christian sects or not ?

If the Borough is, than the Vicar is right.

If the Borough is not, the Vicar is wrong.

Let it not be forgotten that many ancestors of my Non Anglican fellow Indian citizens laid down their lives for the UK's wars.

He's wrong - simply because (from what the article says) the Muslims etc have little or no problem in attending such a service. A service like this can be non-demoninational and the use of the Church building is partly incidental - i.e simply because Churches are usually the largest, most easily accessible building in the community.

Ray · 10-29-2006, 11:02 AM

Pub Father,

What says you on the undermentioned story?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...9/warmy229.xml

I do hope the Moslems don't mind the stuff in the link.

pdf27 · 10-29-2006, 17:13 PM

Two points:
1) He's an Anglican vicar - belief in God is strictly optional.
2) In 2004 the Remembrance Sunday service attended by my unit was given a sermon about how evil and bad everything the army was doing in Iraq was. Given that there were unit members out in Iraq at the time and other people had friends/relatives there, this went down very badly. Ever since we've been vetting the vicar giving the service and if necessary importing one from outside.

Ray · 10-30-2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdf27

Two points:
1) He's an Anglican vicar - belief in God is strictly optional.
2) In 2004 the Remembrance Sunday service attended by my unit was given a sermon about how evil and bad everything the army was doing in Iraq was. Given that there were unit members out in Iraq at the time and other people had friends/relatives there, this went down very badly. Ever since we've been vetting the vicar giving the service and if necessary importing one from outside.

If the Vicar had sermonised that what was up in Iraq was wrong during the Rememberance Service, I reckon he does not know how to give topical sermons.

Sermons are meant to uplift the souls and not demoralise, even while reflecting on God's words.

That said, vetting the vicar's sermon tantamount to censorship!

pdf27 · 10-30-2006, 06:53 AM

Maybe so, but how would your unit have reacted if given a sermon which basically said you're all evil babykillers for fighting, etc. Not well I suspect. This wasn't far off it, and a more... sympathetic... vicar was drafted in for the next year who gave a sermon about some Italian PoWs creating a chapel inside a Nissen hut up in the Orkney Islands during WW2. Strictly noncontroversial.

Ray · 10-30-2006, 11:32 AM

I would not have to vet the religious teacher's (that's what they are called in the IA) sermon because he would be sensible enough to say things that keeps the morale high and not show off as a great morals keeper.

The only thing I used to ensure was that the bloke does not go into raptures with his own voice and so I laid the time limit.

The Chap · 11-02-2006, 01:02 AM

You would never believe that I grew up just around the bloody corner.

10-28-2006, 17:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
Bluesman WAB Bartender *Defense Professional* *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-24-04 Location: Vacaville, CA. Posts: 7,387 Country:	Another little surrender. An inch at a time. Goodbye, Europe. __________________ "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory." - George Orwell

11-02-2006, 01:02 AM	#14 (permalink)
The Chap *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-18-04 Location: UK Posts: 1,181 Country:	shock You would never believe that I grew up just around the bloody corner. __________________ Where's the bloody gin? An army marches on its liver, not its ruddy stomach.

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10-28-2006, 16:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
Parihaka Moderator Join Date: 11-10-04 Location: Te Ika a Maui Posts: 9,466 Country:	he's not a vicar, he's a politician, and he's using the occasion for political purposes

10-29-2006, 02:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
Hari_Om Banished Join Date: 09-30-04 Posts: 1,049 Country:	Difficult to come to a conclusion on the basis of the posted article. The key question here : Is the Borough footing the bill for Remembrance Day service in an Anglican Church to the exclusion of services in the religious establishments of other Religions / Christian sects or not ? If the Borough is, than the Vicar is right. If the Borough is not, the Vicar is wrong. Let it not be forgotten that many ancestors of my Non Anglican fellow Indian citizens laid down their lives for the UK's wars.

10-29-2006, 11:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,149 Country:	Pub Father, What says you on the undermentioned story? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...9/warmy229.xml I do hope the Moslems don't mind the stuff in the link.

10-29-2006, 17:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
pdf27 Contributor Join Date: 06-05-06 Location: UK Posts: 538 Country:	Two points: 1) He's an Anglican vicar - belief in God is strictly optional. 2) In 2004 the Remembrance Sunday service attended by my unit was given a sermon about how evil and bad everything the army was doing in Iraq was. Given that there were unit members out in Iraq at the time and other people had friends/relatives there, this went down very badly. Ever since we've been vetting the vicar giving the service and if necessary importing one from outside.

10-30-2006, 06:53 AM	#12 (permalink)
pdf27 Contributor Join Date: 06-05-06 Location: UK Posts: 538 Country:	Maybe so, but how would your unit have reacted if given a sermon which basically said you're all evil babykillers for fighting, etc. Not well I suspect. This wasn't far off it, and a more... sympathetic... vicar was drafted in for the next year who gave a sermon about some Italian PoWs creating a chapel inside a Nissen hut up in the Orkney Islands during WW2. Strictly noncontroversial.

10-30-2006, 11:32 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,149 Country:	I would not have to vet the religious teacher's (that's what they are called in the IA) sermon because he would be sensible enough to say things that keeps the morale high and not show off as a great morals keeper. The only thing I used to ensure was that the bloke does not go into raptures with his own voice and so I laid the time limit.

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