Poll highlights divide between Muslims, non-Muslims in Britain

**Parihaka** · 07-05-2006, 20:38 PM

Quote:

Poll highlights divide between Muslims, non-Muslims in Britain
Blair, Muslim community each say the other hasn't done enough to fight extremism.
By Arthur Bright | csmonitor.com

As the first anniversary of the July 7 bombings in London nears, a new poll indicates that the British Muslim community is deeply divided over its place in British society.

The Times of London, in conducting an opinion poll of British Muslims, found that six percent of the community believes that the 7/7 bombers "were acting according to the true principles of Islam." Seven percent of those polled feel that suicide attacks on civilians can be "justified under certain circumstances," while that number grows to 16 percent if the attacks target the military.

However, the poll of more than 1,000 Muslims indicates that nearly two thirds of Muslims (64 per cent) think that no more than a tiny minority of their community sympathised with the 7/7 bombers, and 59 per cent of the general population believe the same.

A second poll, of non-Muslim adults, indicates that 58 per cent of the general population think it is unacceptable for police to view Muslims with greater suspicion because the 7/7 bombers were Muslim.

Only a third of Muslims believe that Britain's anti-terror laws are being applied fairly. Despite this, 35 per cent say that they would feel proud if a close family member joined the police. As many (37 per cent) said that they would accept it. By contrast, three quarters (78 per cent) said that they would be angry if a close relative joined al-Qaeda and only 2 per cent said they would be proud.

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The Scotsman reports that, with opinion polls indicating sympathy from some within the Muslim community for the 7/7 bombers' views, Prime Minister Tony Blair "effectively accused Muslims of tacitly supporting extremists."

"We are not having a debate of a fundamental enough nature within the community, which is where the moderate majority go and stand up against the ideas of those people, not just their methods," he told a committee of MPs at Westminster. He took particular aim at British Muslims who agree with the views of extremists but reject their methods.

Only by entirely rejecting even the beliefs of the radicals will terrorism ever be defeated, the Prime Minister said.

"People kind of say, 'We understand why you feel like this but you are wrong to do these things'. You are not going to defeat it like that. You are only going to defeat it if you say, 'You are wrong to feel that way'," Mr Blair said.

However, the Scotsman also notes that some politicians, including members of the prime minister's own Labour Party, feel the British government also bears responsibility. John Denham, the Labour chair of the home affairs committee, expressed regret that the government "has done so little to win hearts and minds," while the Conservative Party's shadow attorney general, Dominic Grieve, said "The Prime Minister gives the impression this is a problem to be resolved in the Muslim community. I disagree - this is a collective problem."

The BBC reports that although seven groups were set up to deal with the government's relations with British Muslim communities, some of those involved with those groups doubt their effectiveness, and say the government fails to realize how its own policies help fuel Muslim extremism.

[Ashqar Bukhari from the Muslim Public Affairs Committee] said the groups contained too many Muslim leaders who were "incapable or wilfully refusing" to tackle extremism and did not involve enough young British-born Muslims.

Mr Bukhari is among those to say the government should accept its foreign policy has lead to anger within Muslim communities. "The government won't face up to the fact that it's foreign policy and not some crazy notion of an ideological problem," he told BBC News 24.

"That's where the solution begins. Once you know young people are angry about foreign policy, you can create an education program in Muslim institutions. You can say to them: 'If you are angry about foreign policy, that's fine, you can change it peacefully and democratically.' That's what they don't know. They're right to be angry - they're wrong in how they carry that anger forward."

Reuters reports that leaders of other British Muslim groups also cite the government's foreign policy as a cause of anger in the Muslim community.

"(Iraq) has been a great concern for Muslims. It is an ongoing concern, especially the situation in Palestine, Chechnya. These impact on the psyche of young people," said Muhammad Abdul Bari, Secretary General of the moderate Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), Britain's biggest Islamic group. "After 7/7 we recommended that there should be a public inquiry to see whether foreign policy had an impact. We are continuing to raise this."

Taji Mustafa, a spokesman for Hizb ut-Tahrir, an organisation the government announced it intended to ban after the bombings, agrees.

"People expect the government, if it is sincere about looking at the causes of anger, to consider Iraq. It refuses to even countenance that as a possible factor," he told Reuters. "It seems to be interested in giving an appearance of doing something rather than actually tackling the issue at hand."

Regardless of the cause, the divide between Muslims and non-Muslims remains deep, according to the poll from The Times. It found that a significant portion of each community regards the other suspiciously: A quarter of the British public sees Islam as "a threat to the British way of life," while more than a third of British Muslims believe "British values threaten the Islamic way of life."

The greatest social difference between British Muslims and the rest of British society is over the wearing of Islamic dress in schools. Three quarters of Muslims (76 per cent) think that pupils should be free to wear religious dress whatever a school's uniform policy, but only two fifths (42 per cent) of the general population agree.

However, the poll also found that on practical matters, there is a high level of agreement between the two groups. Two-thirds of Muslims say their community needs to do more to integrate with British society, while nearly three-quarters of non-Muslims say the same. Muslims and non-Muslims also generally agree on the propriety of certain public behavior, such as public drunkenness and overly revealing women's clothing.

Source

Ray · 07-05-2006, 21:15 PM

It is too complex an issue.

A poll of 1000 only is too small a representation if one wants to obtain a view.

There is no doubt that a vary large number of Moslems do not find the terrorists actions, be it the WTC or London bombing, terribly wrong. They feel that it is but a retribution for the "war" being waged against Islam; they fail to differentiate that the war is not against Islam but against terrorists and that unfortuntely the terrorists, all of them, just happen to be Moslems.

Actually, the British govt themselves are responsible for what has happened in the UK. In their self deluding moralistic high horse of being the most liberal minded nation of the world, they have turned the Nelson's eye to all terrorist groups of all hues, operating within the UK. They had no qualms since these terrorist groups did not do anything that upset British society per se. It is only when the terrorists "socked them in the eye" (to quote a line from the Beatles) on 7/7, did they realise that their fraud liberalism has come home to haunt them.

Sow and ye shall reap.

**Parihaka** · 07-06-2006, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Actually, the British govt themselves are responsible for what has happened in the UK. In their self deluding moralistic high horse of being the most liberal minded nation of the world, they have turned the Nelson's eye to all terrorist groups of all hues, operating within the UK. They had no qualms since these terrorist groups did not do anything that upset British society per se. It is only when the terrorists "socked them in the eye" (to quote a line from the Beatles) on 7/7, did they realise that their fraud liberalism has come home to haunt them.

Sow and ye shall reap.

Agreed. You'd think their experiences with the IRA would have taught them better. Perhaps it was the "colonial guilt" they've supposedly been feeling the past few decades that led them down this path of folly.

Archer · 07-06-2006, 04:54 AM

Parihaka,

Not colonial guilt as much as a combination of strategic concerns and the usual votebank pandering that occurs everywhere. In the case of the UK, from all I have been able to discern, there was a stated policy bias not to crack down on ethnic Muslims on a live and let live basis despite their acts elsewhere, because of HMG's relations with strategically important Pak (during the cold war). Others got through (rebels against Mubarak, Algerian Islamists etc) because they simply didnt matter for the UKs own interests or hurt it, lastly, the likes of Galloway and some Labour MPs etc have sought to win campaigns in Muslim/ Sikh dominated neighourhoods by picking up on their emotive causes or whatever war they are waging from afar. A combination of all these three issues, has caused "Londonistan" .

I remember in the late 80's- India submitting a list of funding orgs of Khalistanis - it went nowhere. Similar attempts to track J&K terror funding (from UK based Mirpuri Muslims) were stalled in red tape and HMG officials were least bothered.

But then I think Omar Saeed Sheikh (killer of Danny Pearl) & his history started waking the UK up.

Hari_Om · 07-06-2006, 07:36 AM

Archer,

Yes indeed, the sobriquet Londonistan and for that matter Bradfordabad was well earned by the UK.

The price of appeasement though for the UK, if that indeed is what it was all about, is to have Europe’s most anti-western Muslim population.

See this story from just a fortnight back dealing with a completely different poll :

Poll shows Muslims in Britain are the most anti-western in Europe

Meanwhile I think there could be one more factor besides those you named that could be at work.

Namely the national origins of the UK’s Muslim population ( See last para here ).

Asim Aquil · 07-06-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parihaka

Source

Parihaka, most of the differences cited narrate how the two indeed are from two different schools of thought.

However as you saw only 2% wanted to hook up with Al Q (what I'm wondering were they reported in after they said yes?).

It's a good thing they're objecting to most of the things unfairly thrusted upon them by anti-terror laws.

This is very important:

Quote:

Once you know young people are angry about foreign policy, you can create an education program in Muslim institutions. You can say to them: 'If you are angry about foreign policy, that's fine, you can change it peacefully and democratically.' That's what they don't know. They're right to be angry - they're wrong in how they carry that anger forward."

platinum786 · 07-06-2006, 08:10 AM

The governemnt is not doing enough to deal with the issues at hand. Evidently people are not happy with the way foreign policy is being dealt with in particular towards muslim nations. Until the government is willing to accept that then nothing will happen, no gain will be made.

Ray · 07-06-2006, 12:51 PM

Actually, the British foreign policy is not great towards any nation, be it Moslem or otherwise!

Israel finds it not fair in UK's defence of Palestinian and their violent acts. But I don't find Jews taking to the streets or emasculating the British economy [since Mahathir claimed in the Organisation of Islamic States meeting in KL) that the Jews own the world!]

So, I reckon, it does not hold water what is being stated in defence of Islam vis a vis UK policies.

Archer · 07-06-2006, 13:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by platinum786

The governemnt is not doing enough to deal with the issues at hand. Evidently people are not happy with the way foreign policy is being dealt with in particular towards muslim nations. Until the government is willing to accept that then nothing will happen, no gain will be made.

Be more upfront and say "Muslim people", not people in general.

I find this line of reasoning showing extra-territorial loyalty exactly why Muslim populations are often looked at askance.

Despite the UKs own strategic imperative or whatever reason it is in Iraq or the way it acts towards Muslim nations, you seek to arm twist it or have it conform to your perception of the ideal. If the bulk of the UK, Christian-Buddhist-Hindu are ok with the current policy, then learn to live with it and not wear a chip on your shoulder about how the Muslim countries are treated.
Its not as if the bulk of them treat non Muslims or non Muslim countries with care or concern either.

If you still have such feelings, or others do, then be honest to your deen or culture or religion and leave, back to Mirpur or Pakistan or Dubai- instead of coercing your fellow citizens to do what you want and treat Muslim nations differently just because they are Muslim.

I know of many Jews who did precisely that, when they saw their loyalty towards their country and Israel being conflicted. Those that do lobby for Israel in the US dont threaten or protest the way the Muslim community does.

Till you realize that you are part of a multi-cultural society and in democracy, the larger bloc gets its way, and that Muslims are not necessarily special to have their regions treated differently...there is not going to be much sympathy for your POV either. Just being frank.

platinum786 · 07-06-2006, 14:20 PM

There are 14 million jews in the world, they get there way.

there are 1.5 billion plus muslims in the world they2 will get thier way too soon...it's jsut a matter of using brains and exchanging services and ideas rather than blocks of explosives and comments between idiots.

This loyalty thing for ones religion is not just a sole muslim thing,t ake for example the jew that the palestinains hold, he's of french nationality, it's not bad or terrible for him to have extra-territorial loyalties is it?!

**Parihaka** · 07-06-2006, 14:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Parihaka, most of the differences cited narrate how the two indeed are from two different schools of thought.

However as you saw only 2% wanted to hook up with Al Q (what I'm wondering were they reported in after they said yes?).

It's a good thing they're objecting to most of the things unfairly thrusted upon them by anti-terror laws.

This is very important:

The commonality displayed by the poll is heartening, but the danger in treating any group as special and deserving special treatment is that it reinforces that groups feelings of difference and independence.
The argument can apply to any group in any country, whether the Maori in New Zealand with the treaty of Waitangi settlements or affirmative action programmes in the USA. It actually accentuates and reinforces the differences and perpetuates the sense of grievance.

raj · 07-06-2006, 15:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by platinum786

The governemnt is not doing enough to deal with the issues at hand. Evidently people are not happy with the way foreign policy is being dealt with in particular towards muslim nations. Until the government is willing to accept that then nothing will happen, no gain will be made.

when it comes to pakistan, the muslim citizens beleive in "PAKISTAN FIRST" slogan, why is it that it changes to the "other muslim nations" when it comes to the point of a muslim living in BRITAN????

platinum786 · 07-06-2006, 16:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raj

when it comes to pakistan, the muslim citizens beleive in "PAKISTAN FIRST" slogan, why is it that it changes to the "other muslim nations" when it comes to the point of a muslim living in BRITAN????

that's not always the case, opinions alter from person to person.

raj · 07-06-2006, 16:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by platinum786

that's not always the case, opinions alter from person to person.

just because Britan is a christian majority country

Ray · 07-06-2006, 21:28 PM

Quote:

There are 14 million jews in the world, they get there way.

I don't seem to find any evdence of that, not even in the murky Palestine issue.

07-05-2006, 21:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,226 Country:	It is too complex an issue. A poll of 1000 only is too small a representation if one wants to obtain a view. There is no doubt that a vary large number of Moslems do not find the terrorists actions, be it the WTC or London bombing, terribly wrong. They feel that it is but a retribution for the "war" being waged against Islam; they fail to differentiate that the war is not against Islam but against terrorists and that unfortuntely the terrorists, all of them, just happen to be Moslems. Actually, the British govt themselves are responsible for what has happened in the UK. In their self deluding moralistic high horse of being the most liberal minded nation of the world, they have turned the Nelson's eye to all terrorist groups of all hues, operating within the UK. They had no qualms since these terrorist groups did not do anything that upset British society per se. It is only when the terrorists "socked them in the eye" (to quote a line from the Beatles) on 7/7, did they realise that their fraud liberalism has come home to haunt them. Sow and ye shall reap. __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

07-06-2006, 04:54 AM	#4 (permalink)
Archer *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 10-13-03 Posts: 2,888	Parihaka, Not colonial guilt as much as a combination of strategic concerns and the usual votebank pandering that occurs everywhere. In the case of the UK, from all I have been able to discern, there was a stated policy bias not to crack down on ethnic Muslims on a live and let live basis despite their acts elsewhere, because of HMG's relations with strategically important Pak (during the cold war). Others got through (rebels against Mubarak, Algerian Islamists etc) because they simply didnt matter for the UKs own interests or hurt it, lastly, the likes of Galloway and some Labour MPs etc have sought to win campaigns in Muslim/ Sikh dominated neighourhoods by picking up on their emotive causes or whatever war they are waging from afar. A combination of all these three issues, has caused "Londonistan" . I remember in the late 80's- India submitting a list of funding orgs of Khalistanis - it went nowhere. Similar attempts to track J&K terror funding (from UK based Mirpuri Muslims) were stalled in red tape and HMG officials were least bothered. But then I think Omar Saeed Sheikh (killer of Danny Pearl) & his history started waking the UK up. __________________ Karmani Vyapurutham Dhanuhu My bow is stretched for its task

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07-06-2006, 07:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
Hari_Om Banished Join Date: 09-30-04 Posts: 1,049 Country:	Archer, Yes indeed, the sobriquet Londonistan and for that matter Bradfordabad was well earned by the UK. The price of appeasement though for the UK, if that indeed is what it was all about, is to have Europe’s most anti-western Muslim population. See this story from just a fortnight back dealing with a completely different poll : Poll shows Muslims in Britain are the most anti-western in Europe Meanwhile I think there could be one more factor besides those you named that could be at work. Namely the national origins of the UK’s Muslim population ( See last para here ).

07-06-2006, 08:10 AM	#7 (permalink)
platinum786 Banished Join Date: 06-14-04 Posts: 1,986	The governemnt is not doing enough to deal with the issues at hand. Evidently people are not happy with the way foreign policy is being dealt with in particular towards muslim nations. Until the government is willing to accept that then nothing will happen, no gain will be made.

07-06-2006, 12:51 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,226 Country:	Actually, the British foreign policy is not great towards any nation, be it Moslem or otherwise! Israel finds it not fair in UK's defence of Palestinian and their violent acts. But I don't find Jews taking to the streets or emasculating the British economy [since Mahathir claimed in the Organisation of Islamic States meeting in KL) that the Jews own the world!] So, I reckon, it does not hold water what is being stated in defence of Islam vis a vis UK policies.

07-06-2006, 14:20 PM	#10 (permalink)
platinum786 Banished Join Date: 06-14-04 Posts: 1,986	There are 14 million jews in the world, they get there way. there are 1.5 billion plus muslims in the world they2 will get thier way too soon...it's jsut a matter of using brains and exchanging services and ideas rather than blocks of explosives and comments between idiots. This loyalty thing for ones religion is not just a sole muslim thing,t ake for example the jew that the palestinains hold, he's of french nationality, it's not bad or terrible for him to have extra-territorial loyalties is it?!

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