India has sold its nuclear soul to the US - Page 3

Neo · 04-28-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

Also, the article ignores India's Fast Breeder Reactor program. India right now is at the cutting-ege of FBR technology which can be used to power tomorrow as well as produce plutonium for our nuclear bombs.. We have kept this in the military list... India is the only country right now that is building efficient Fast Breeder Reactors based on the thorium cycle.. And India has plenty of thoruium (half the world's reserves)

The technology is still unmastered and remains in early developping stage.
I may be wrong but western analysts believe it could take decades to get feasable technology to run FBR's on thorium.

Ray · 04-28-2006, 13:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

Discomfort..??

Pak ministers are campaigning for parity, demanding what's right!
There's no anti campaining to stop the deal because we believe that the deal is a door opener for other countries to strike similar deal, an argument often heard in the congress lately.

Pakistan would only be concernd if US was to recognise India as Nuclear weapon state, which is not the case.

Parity?

Whatever for?

Take what is your right and what is your requirement.

It is not an auction that there has to be competition.

Does India feel just because China has 'X' number of nuclear reactor, India MUST have 'X' numbers of them too?

No.

If Pakistan requires nuclear reactors, then it must get them but it has nothing to do with how many India has got, or, how many Fiji desires!

It does not matter who recognises whom as a nuclear state. It is all labels.

Neo · 04-28-2006, 13:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

It is really immaterial.

Has India objected?

No one in India has bothered about it or made a song and a dance about it.

No India hasn't objected, on the contrary...

Quote:

Secretary Condoleezza Rice is believed to be the force behind the hurriedly concocted and potentially damaging Indo-US Nuclear deal, which will arguably compromise American nuclear secrets vis-à-vis its national security. Reportedly, the deal is a brainchild of Secretary Rice's counselor and longtime colleague Philip Zelikow and (a Bombay-born expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a former aide to Blackwill) Ashley Tellis. On April 3, 2006, the Washington Post (p.A01) reported, "Upon Rice's return from Asia, Zelikow began exchanging memos with Tellis, resulting in a 50-page 'action agenda' for U.S.-Indian relations completed in mid-May." While making a case for India, in a memo Tellis argued, US would have to "help New Delhi develop strategic capabilities such that India's nuclear weaponry and associated delivery systems" to deter growing Chinese influence.

The Post also revealed Bush Administration's maverick strategy of assisting India in developing nuclear weapons. It reported, "the Bush administration originally wanted a pact that would let India continue producing material for six to 10 weapons each year, [but the signed deal] would allow it enough fissile material for as many as 50 annually." The Indians were quick to pick on American desperation to conclude a deal. They outfoxed the Americans on negotiation table. The Post quoted a senior American official involved in the negotiation, the "Indians were incredibly greedy that day. They were getting 99 percent of what they asked for and still they pushed for 100." It was as if Bush Administration's sole goal was to please the Indians at any cost.

OrdinaryGuy · 04-28-2006, 13:03 PM

NEO, u r wrong

Quote:

India has an active development program featuring both fast and thermal breeder reactors.

India’s first 40 MWt Fast Breeder Test Reactor (FBTR) attained criticality on 18th October 1985. Thus India becomes the sixth nation having the technology to built and operate a FBTR after US, UK, France, Japan and the former USSR.

India has developed and mastered the technology to produce the plutonium rich U-Pu mixed carbide fuel. This can be used in the Fast Breeder Reactor.

At present the scientists of the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), one of the nuclear R&D institutions of India, are engaged in the construction of another FBR - the 500 MWe prototype fast breeder reactor- at Kalpakkam, near Chennai.

India has the capability to use Thorium Cycle based processes to extract nuclear fuel. This is of special significance to the Indian nuclear power generation strategy as India has the world's largest reserves of thorium — about 360,000 tones — that can fuel nuclear projects for an estimated 2,500 years. But the hitch is with the expensive nature of the construction of Fast Breeder Reactor in comparison with the Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors (PHWR) in use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_breeder_reactor

Current estimates put India at having fully functional thorium reactors by 2015. The concept has already been proven and actual functional reactors are ebing built

Neo · 04-28-2006, 13:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Parity?

Whatever for?

Take what is your right and what is your requirement.

It is not an auction that there has to be competition.

Does India feel just because China has 'X' number of nuclear reactor, India MUST have 'X' numbers of them too?

No.

If Pakistan requires nuclear reactors, then it must get them but it has nothing to do with how many India has got, or, how many Fiji desires!

It does not matter who recognises whom as a nuclear state. It is all labels.

Right to the track Sir!
Problem is not how many India is getting, no objection to that.
Real problem is that Pakistan is NOT GETTING ANY from the US.
That's our only objection to the deal.

Ray · 04-28-2006, 13:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Secretary Condoleezza Rice is believed to be the force behind the hurriedly concocted and potentially damaging Indo-US Nuclear deal, which will arguably compromise American nuclear secrets vis-à-vis its national security. Reportedly, the deal is a brainchild of Secretary Rice's counselor and longtime colleague Philip Zelikow and (a Bombay-born expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a former aide to Blackwill) Ashley Tellis. On April 3, 2006, the Washington Post (p.A01) reported, "Upon Rice's return from Asia, Zelikow began exchanging memos with Tellis, resulting in a 50-page 'action agenda' for U.S.-Indian relations completed in mid-May." While making a case for India, in a memo Tellis argued, US would have to "help New Delhi develop strategic capabilities such that India's nuclear weaponry and associated delivery systems" to deter growing Chinese influence.

The Post also revealed Bush Administration's maverick strategy of assisting India in developing nuclear weapons. It reported, "the Bush administration originally wanted a pact that would let India continue producing material for six to 10 weapons each year, [but the signed deal] would allow it enough fissile material for as many as 50 annually." The Indians were quick to pick on American desperation to conclude a deal. They outfoxed the Americans on negotiation table. The Post quoted a senior American official involved in the negotiation, the "Indians were incredibly greedy that day. They were getting 99 percent of what they asked for and still they pushed for 100." It was as if Bush Administration's sole goal was to please the Indians at any cost.

Neo,

Tomorrow if you sign a deal that opens up a route to India, the papers will say " Neo, the son of Indian origin parents of the capital of the Nizam, a ardent and patriotic Indian, influenced the deal so that he could be in the inaugural flight to the native land of his parents!"

And everyone will believe it so!

Neo · 04-28-2006, 13:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

NEO, u r wrong

Current estimates put India at having fully functional thorium reactors by 2015. The concept has already been proven and actual functional reactors are ebing built

So actually by the time Indo-US nuke deal comes in to effect, which is believed to be around the same time, India will already have fully functional thorium based reactors or atleast full capability?

Neo · 04-28-2006, 13:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Neo,

Tomorrow if you sign a deal that opens up a route to India, the papers will say " Neo, the son of Indian origin parents of the capital of the Nizam, a ardent and patriotic Indian, influenced the deal so that he could be in the inaugural flight to the native land of his parents!"

And everyone will believe it so!

LOL

Been there, done that but I didn't make it to the media.

The airline I work for operated six chrtered flights to Goa last year.

Ray · 04-28-2006, 13:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

Right to the track Sir!
Problem is not how many India is getting, no objection to that.
Real problem is that Pakistan is NOT GETTING ANY from the US.
That's our only objection to the deal.

Hardly any reason to object or get into a tizzy.

The US is not distributed lollipops to school children that may ecourage a clamour.

If the US does not give, so what?

Must it be a US reactor?

There are many countries like China who will and are giving Pakistan nuclear reactors, latest being two!

I am sure they are as good. Unless they are of Chernobyl design, they should be OK.

Or do Pakistanis feel Chinese product are cheap and are duds!

OrdinaryGuy · 04-28-2006, 13:21 PM

The Indian nuclear deal is going for a vote in the US congress this July, not in 2015. After its passage, the US will conevene a special meeting of the NSG to have rules ammended... not in 2015..

India plans to open its nuclear sector to private players this year, not in 2015..

Also, by 2015 India will have only 1 or 2 thorium FBR units.. Not enough to produce India's vast power needs.. So really, the FBR is a long term program that's effects will be seen 20 or 30 years down the road in terms of mass power generation.

But India has certainly mastered the technology and is the only country in the world right now that has..

Neo · 04-28-2006, 13:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

If the US does not give, so what?

Must it be a US reactor?

Most certainly not, German or French reactors are as good but without US approval there's no way getting those.

Quote:

There are many countries like China who will and are giving Pakistan nuclear reactors, latest being two!

I am sure they are as good. Unless they are of Chernobyl design, they should be OK.

China will deliver, but their export designs have a max capacity of 350MW only, which will do for now.
For future needs, we need FBR's.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-28-2006, 13:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

India is investing heavily where it can to produce uranium domestically.. But there is simply not enough viable uranium domestically..

India has to recently import uranium for its Tarapur reactor...

All you've shown me is that it's too damned expensive; not the lack of domestic resources. The fact you have new mines tells me already that you have even yet to begin exploitation. If you're closing down mines, then you have an arguement but you're not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Well India is getting around the problems by having private players coming into the pictures. They are seriously considering having the private players build their own nuclear power plants, sell electricity. The only thing that GOI will do is guarantee their loans up to a certain point. That way, GOI won't be diverting its money from the nuclear weapon program.

Come on, Hitesh. Do you actually believe what you wrote? The GOI will have to shell out money big time for any power plant in the form of loans, deferements, land grants, etc. Whether they will actually recover this money from private players is a question and a half.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Besides the money was already there in the pipeline. They were going to build more reactors regardless whether US will sell them the reactors or not. If the US weren't going to, they were going to turn to the Russians and the Russians were willing to sell them the reactors but was constrained by the NSG restrictions. That alone tells me that they have already decided this matter years ago and set aside the money for nuclear reactors and set aside for nuclear weapon material production as well.

Which again comes to my point that your current assets will NOT be expanded. You've already decided where the current dollars are going. You're not spending new dollars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blasdemaster

Besides can you tell me that US produces nuclear weapon materials from all of its nuclear reactors? The way I see it, producing nuclear weapon materials is extremely inefficient for producing electricity. The way I see it, India doesn't need to build a lot of reactors for nuclear weapon material production. Just build a dedicated few that will allow production of 50 to 75 nukes a year. That means 5 reactors and India wants at least 40 to 60 reactors.

Which again goes to my point that India is not lacking in resources for domestic use. Making nukes wastes alot of U. U that can go into powering civie reactors.

And you're reaching about 50-75 nukes a year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Yes we are. We tried to shop from the Russians but they said they couldnt do it because of the NSG agreements.

Reactors that are already decided upon, payment setup, and underway and way too late in the game for the Americans to come in. The only thing the Americans can do is to supply the U.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

And I just do not see how the India-US nuclear deal LIMITS india's military nuclear program.

If India wanted to find funding to increase its military program, I am sure it could provided they had enough uranium for it.

It LIMITS, not eliminates, the program. The Americans can supply U alot cheaper than India can produce; meaning that any venture just purely for military purposes would be cost-inefficent and most certainly money lossing proposition for the mineowners ... unless India is willing to buy U at WAY above market price.

OrdinaryGuy · 04-28-2006, 13:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

It LIMITS, not eliminates, the program. The Americans can supply U alot cheaper than India can produce; meaning that any venture just purely for military purposes would be cost-inefficent and most certainly money lossing proposition for the mineowners ... unless India is willing to buy U at WAY above market price.

A military program does NOT have to make commerical sense.
If the government alots the funding, and there is a stragic need.. domestic reserves could be divered to a military program

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-28-2006, 13:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

A military program does NOT have to make commerical sense.
If the government alots the funding, and there is a stragic need.. domestic reserves could be divered to a military program

Hehehehahahahahahahahahaha ... Ahhhhh, you sound just like the Chinese internet warriors, only they have the correct arguement that the CCP is not a democrazy.

But even China with its economic growth do not have an unlimited military budget and certainly a budget for such kind of expansion is a budget that they cannot afford.

OrdinaryGuy · 04-28-2006, 13:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Come on, Hitesh. Do you actually believe what you wrote? The GOI will have to shell out money big time for any power plant in the form of loans, deferements, land grants, etc. Whether they will actually recover this money from private players is a question and a half.

Some of India's very large industrial power houses have shown great interest in investing in a nuclear sector and are already drawing up plans (eg. Reliance). These companies can easily raise funds from India's capital market (which is twice the size of Chinas). And best, GOI might provide land subsidies

Quote:

Which again comes to my point that your current assets will NOT be expanded. You've already decided where the current dollars are going. You're not spending new dollars.

You are totally mistaken. India has drawn up plans for large scale investment in the civilian sector for public owned nuclear reactors. Also, the military program comes under the defense budget. India's defence budget is being hiked by nearly 8% each year and certainly some new funds could be devoted to expanding the military nuclear program

Quote:

Which again goes to my point that India is not lacking in resources for domestic use. Making nukes wastes alot of U. U that can go into powering civie reactors.

you are the only person that I've seen that claims India has enough resources to fuel a uranium civil program. Every article written to date stresses the fact that India has limited reserves to maintain a civilian program.
If domestic uranium is used for military purposes alone, the military program could be increased

Quote:

And you're reaching about 50-75 nukes a year.

No we are not

Quote:

Reactors that are already decided upon, payment setup, and underway and way too late in the game for the Americans to come in. The only thing the Americans can do is to supply the U.

India's intention was never to buy reactors, but to buy the fuel from America. India wishes to buy reactors from Germany and France

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04-28-2006, 13:21 PM	#40 (permalink)
OrdinaryGuy Contributor Join Date: 09-24-05 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 361 Country:	The Indian nuclear deal is going for a vote in the US congress this July, not in 2015. After its passage, the US will conevene a special meeting of the NSG to have rules ammended... not in 2015.. India plans to open its nuclear sector to private players this year, not in 2015.. Also, by 2015 India will have only 1 or 2 thorium FBR units.. Not enough to produce India's vast power needs.. So really, the FBR is a long term program that's effects will be seen 20 or 30 years down the road in terms of mass power generation. But India has certainly mastered the technology and is the only country in the world right now that has..

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