sparten

I don't doubt that. However the fact that the Nelsons were built under Treaty limits caused several design compromises which severely affected her performance. Not being able to fire dead on is a very big disadvantage. IMO, the Brits should have insisted that they be able to not only build 2 16" gunboats, but build them outside Treaty limits.

The instructions the engineers gave regarding the effect of simultaneou firung and firing dead on were ignored by the crew in the Bismarck engagement. They did almost as much damage to the Rodney as to the Bismarck.

Hmmm... no doubt the 15'/42 was an excellent weapon, but the 16'/45 was poorly designed. In theory that should have been the weapon of choice. The 14"/45 seems to have been influenced mainly by the British desire to have as many guns as possible on a ship.

__________________
"Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

Dreadnought

Another interesting tip about the Bizmark.. Never knew this.. She had push button steering

Quoted: From article Bizmarks Final Battle.
Bismarck was equipped with push button steering, as were all German warships of this period. The helmsman would hold both hands on to a bar and with the palms of his hands press down on switches to turn port (left hand) or starboard (right hand). With the din of battle and the necessity to read the rudder indicator to determine his rudder positions, undoubtedly the helmsman, Quartermaster Hans Hansen of Bismarck, was hard pressed to make the maneuvers ordered by Captain Lindemann during those crucial moments when she was under torpedo attack. Modern German warships have abandoned this concept as part of a human factors evaluation.

Can you imagine having to stay calm at the helm of the Bizmark holding on to a round bar and squeezing with your palms to steer while reading rudder positioning via overhead gauge all the while under shell and torpedo attack and someone shouting orders at you. Talk abot sweaty palms...lol

smilingassassin

Overall the Nelsons weren't perfect but when compaired to their closest counterparts of the day they faired well. Flaws can be found in any warship. When dealing with the Washington Treaty ships one has to balance out the desired atributes, dispite cheating on the treaty the Bismarcks had their own serious flaws.

Again the brits closed on the Bismarck which resulted in the straight trajectory of the shells, which did little against the low belt of Bismarck, most shells striking the portion above the belt. The killer for Bismarck was that this low belt meant a greater risk of progressive flooding. That and the fact that the main guns were taken out rather quickly meant she was doomed early, the controversial scuttling issue is a moot point in my veiw, even if she wasn't scuttled she would have sunk eventually due to the level of damage she recieved.

She had no guns no, command structure and damage control was pointless with two virtually unscathed BB's and their escorts circling like sharks.

sparten

The Brits would hava captured her, and displayed her in Southhampton. Can you even imagine that?

No doubt sir, but again my point, the Brits should have insisted on a BB class unhampered bt the treaty .Or done an italian job and lied outright about the displacement of the BB.

smilingassassin

I doubt she would have survived the tow, and German U-boats were a significant threat so I doubt they would even bother. Still it would be quite a sight to see the Bismarck tied up to a peir shot all to hell.



They could have done like the Americans and listed their weight as "initial design displacement" and not as the actual final product, which could come out overweight. I think they should have simply developed a triple turret for the 15"/42 rather than fall pray to the 16" gun envy game. Emagine the Nelsons with acurate 15" guns, a more conventional layout and a tad bit more speed.

The problem with the British calibers was they were all smaller than the various treatys (Washington and London) allowed. Instead of the 16", 8" and 6" the Brits had the 15"/42, 7.5" of the Hawkins class CA and a new 5.5" mount on the Hood.

Dreadnought

I dont think the Germans would have let her come under tow. They would definately have had one of their own subs send her to the bottom before this would happen if she wasnt skuttled or sunk due to the Brits. Imagin the propaganda war and we all know Germany used this tool very well. If the English captured their pride and joy and then brought her back and tied her up for display. Hitler would have been infuriated and stopped at nothing until she was sunk. I would bet had this happened she would have been torpedoed at her moorings just like Gunther Prein did to the Royal Oak at Scapa Flow. And if not then they would have definately sunk her during the Blitz just in spite.
Also keep in mind it was not a common practice to capture an enemies capital ship and tow it back for keeping they would rather send it to the bottom knowing they would never have to deal with it again or for the Germans send her to the bottom so the Brits wouldnt get her. It was probably the furthest from the Brits mind they in no doubt wanted revenge for Germany sending Hood to the bottom earlier in the battle.

sparten

Imagine,

Churchill visits Bismarck, The Royal Couple inspect her damaged turrets, commonwealth boy scouts on a field trip to Bismarck.

Capital Ships were a countrys pride and joy. They did not surrender. One hell of a propaganda coup.

smilingassassin

Yes it would be, but the germans still had three more BB's along with two pocket battleships and two CA's threatening British merchant shiping so it was easier to just sink her and move on with the war. Sinking her was the next best thing propaganda wise. Bismarcks sinking ultimately effected the Germans use of their remaining BB's, in that none dared to sortie into the Atlantic again.

Its a good thing Hitler started the war when he did, otherwise we would have seen some "H" class (8x16") and some O/P/Q class BC's (6x15") along with a likely refit that would give the scharnhorsts 15" guns and the completion of the CV Graf zeppilin and possibly a sister ship.