Indo-Russo MTA

11-09-2006, 18:34 PM

The indo-russian Medium Transport Aircraft as a joint developement programme has been signed already.

The requirements will be around 200 to 300 for IAF "45 being first order" and around 100 to 150 for Russia and a lot for export.

Here is a video directly from Irsktusk.

It will replace the An 12 and An 24 of Indian and Russian Air force and also for export.

So far the Video looks amazing pretty cool!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRZ6oZcx8Q8

sukhoi · 11-15-2006, 14:51 PM

Looking Awesome to me.

This is why Joint-Production should be there between Countires, sepecially Indo-Russia. Joint-Production like MTA can be made according to requirments of both Airforce.

Hope there should be the same with the Stealth Aircraft Deal

highsea · 11-15-2006, 18:21 PM

Well, we've been hearing about this for the last 5 years. So far, nothing has materialized.

Russia hasn't even finalized their requirements yet. India is thought to have at the end of last year, but a tender has yet to be issued. Presumably there will be a bidding process, which means there may be other contenders besides the IL-214.

Also, there is no Russian turbofan engine in the class, which means some additional investment would be needed.

As far the numbers, the feasability study was based on the assumption that India would buy 45 frames and Russia would need 60. An additional 95 frames were identified as potential exports, split between a military and commercial variant, and looking ahead to 2020.

Development costs were estimated at $400 Million, not counting the new engine. This was to be split equally. How much has actually been allocated?

IOW, the program is yet to be actually launched. No doubt there is a need for some new transports, but who knows what will eventually fill that need. Developing a new AC is not always the best option, especially when we're dealing with a relatively small number of frames.

I usually like to see a little more than a CG video before I start popping the champagne corks...

kams · 11-15-2006, 20:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

Well, we've been hearing about this for the last 5 years. So far, nothing has materialized.

Russia hasn't even finalized their requirements yet. India is thought to have at the end of last year, but a tender has yet to be issued. Presumably there will be a bidding process, which means there may be other contenders besides the IL-214.

Also, there is no Russian turbofan engine in the class, which means some additional investment would be needed.

As far the numbers, the feasability study was based on the assumption that India would buy 45 frames and Russia would need 60. An additional 95 frames were identified as potential exports, split between a military and commercial variant, and looking ahead to 2020.

Development costs were estimated at $400 Million, not counting the new engine. This was to be split equally. How much has actually been allocated?

IOW, the program is yet to be actually launched. No doubt there is a need for some new transports, but who knows what will eventually fill that need. Developing a new AC is not always the best option, especially when we're dealing with a relatively small number of frames.

I usually like to see a little more than a CG video before I start popping the champagne corks...

This was in news recently.

Quote:

Posted 11/06/06 14:52
India, Russia To Develop Medium Airlifter[/b]
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI

India has finalized details with Russia for the joint development of a Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA).

Under the late-October agreement, India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and Russia’s Irkut Corp. and Ilyushin Design Bureau will team to produce the aircraft for both Indian and Russian forces.

The agreement, expected to be inked formally during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India in January, envisions a 50-50 partnership, with India and Russia each committing $300 million to kick-start the project.

Once the agreement is in place, the partner nations will start designing the MTA and developing prototypes, a HAL official said.

The first certified MTA prototype should roll out at HAL’s facilities in Kanpur in 2013, after which serial production will begin.

The two partners still must iron out specific workshares for specific systems and assemblies at the three companies.

The Indo-Russian MTA is intended to compete with the Lockheed Martin C-130J airlifter, and expected cost around $35 million to $40 million per plane.

Its backers see a market of 200 aircraft in India, 150 in Russia and around 100 elsewhere in the world.

The MTA will carry 18 tons of cargo, the HAL official said. It will be powered by two turbofan engines with Full Authority Digital Engine Control, compatible with a fly-by-wire control system. It will employ state-of-the-art avionics and digital systems.

More Mobility

The MTA is part of a broader push to make India’s military more mobile and flexible. Other efforts include upgrading existing aircraft and buying new foreign-made planes, a Ministry of Defence official said.

The military doctrine adopted in 2004 speaks of swift battles supported by the quick transportation of troops, particularly special forces. Defense forces need to be able to respond quickly, whether to an insurgency in the northeast or to Muslim fundamentalists in Jammu and Kashmir state in northern India.

India already is negotiating the purchase of an unspecified number of C-130J transport aircraft, which is the preferred transport of the Air Force because it can land on improvised runways without lights, a service official said.

India’s airlift strength currently includes more than 200 transport aircraft, primarily German Dorniers, Russian-made An-32s and Il-76s, Indian Avros planes, and Russian Mi-8, Mi-17 and Mi-26 helicopters.

The Air Force official said the C-130s will not replace the aging An-32 aircraft and will only serve to strengthen the current fleet.

The service’s 110 An-32s are being upgraded at a depot at Kanpur with technical assistance from HAL. That $200 million effort will be completed by 2012.

There is no bidding, partners have been identified, HAL, IRKUT, Ilushian Design Bureau., formal agreement will be signed during President Putin's visit to India in January 2007. The total no. of airframes to be procured are much higher, and $300 million are being allocated from each side for the project.

highsea · 11-15-2006, 20:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kams

...There is no bidding, partners have been identified, HAL, IRKUT, Ilushian Design Bureau., formal agreement will be signed during President Putin's visit to India in January 2007. The total no. of airframes to be procured are much higher, and $300 million are being allocated from each side for the project.

You mean the IAF will have no choice? They will have it forced down their throats whether it meets their needs or not? They will not submit a tender?

Sounds like another LCA deal. Hang on to your wallet.

Interesting that the estimate of the development cost has doubled to $600 Million though...

kams · 11-15-2006, 21:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

You mean the IAF will have no choice? They will have it forced down their throats whether it meets their needs or not? They will not submit a tender?

Sounds like another LCA deal. Hang on to your wallet.

Interesting that the estimate of the development cost has doubled to $600 Million though...

Hmm if you are talking about US style development competition and then selection of the best suited, then no IAF doesn't have a choice. That kind of development is yet to happen in India. IAF will have a say on its specifications and hopefully will accept only what it likes. I am glad that IRKUT is the partner. In any case the article sure answered some of your questions.

kams · 11-15-2006, 21:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

You mean the IAF will have no choice? They will have it forced down their throats whether it meets their needs or not? They will not submit a tender?

Sounds like another LCA deal. Hang on to your wallet.

Interesting that the estimate of the development cost has doubled to $600 Million though...

Hmm if you are talking about US style development competition and then selection of the best suited, then no IAF doesn't have a choice. That kind of development is yet to happen in India. IAF will have a say on its specifications and hopefully will accept only what it likes. I am glad that IRKUT is the partner. In any case the article sure answered some of your questions.

11-16-2006, 03:36 AM

IMHO the deal has been passed in the parliament.
I have to find the exact source.
But India had 2 aircraft deal during putins visit.

1> MTA
2> 5th gen PAKFA.

We got go ahead on MTA, and declined the PAKFA as we asked for a developement from scratch "atleast 12 years".

so a 5th gen thing might happen next year on putins visit...as PAKFA is not really going to be any 5th gen thing.

This MTA's requirements has been EVALUATED by IAF and RuAF, then only it has been given go ahead.
what makes you guys think IAF didnt know bout the operational capabilities and HAL went ahead?
no way!

11-16-2006, 03:37 AM

The date is a bit wrong there, it'll be before 2013.
in another article it said first prototype will fly in 2009.

highsea · 11-16-2006, 15:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey

This MTA's requirements has been EVALUATED by IAF and RuAF, then only it has been given go ahead.

The requirements haven't been finalized, and the plane hasn't been built- no one can know if the requirements (that haven't been finalized) will be met, or what compromises will have to be made.

This deal for co-development was signed back in 2001! The Russian Defense Ministry didn't announce their tender till late 2004. The IAF has yet to issue a tender. Comprende?

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey

what makes you guys think IAF didnt know bout the operational capabilities and HAL went ahead?

That's why AF's issues tenders- to specify their requirements to the manufacturers and solicit bids. The IAF is not in the business of building airplanes, they are in the business of flying them. They can project their needs wrt numbers of frames, but it is up to the manufacturers to be ready to fill those needs when they arise.

Now this project may actually go forward- we'll have to wait and see. But if the IAF doesn't have a say in whether they want to field this plane in 2012 or something else, you're buying a pig in a poke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey

The date is a bit wrong there, it'll be before 2013.
in another article it said first prototype will fly in 2009.

I can show you articles that say the Pak-Fa will fly in 2005. Or the LCA in 1995.

Joey, it will take at least 5 years from the time the program is actually launched. That's assuming that there are no major roadblocks, and the engine doesn't delay the dev cycle. India will probably want CFM-56's while Russia will want upthrusted D-30's or D-436's. The PS-12 is delayed, so that does not appear to be an option as of right now.

There are always trade-offs- India's high-altitude and short field requirements are different then Russia's. Details have to be hammered out wrt the basic capacities and layouts. So far, most of the actual specs appear to have been set out by Russia, ability to carry BMP-3 and BTR-90, etc. I am sure the IAF will want a say. The Russian tender specified an increase in the cargo capacity from 15 to 20 tons. The heavier it gets, the harder it is to meet high-altitude goals. There will be organizational and financial issues to deal with, production share between HAL and Irkut, etc.

You can't expect to launch the program in Jan 2007 and have a maiden flight in 2 years. Look how long it took to India to get the first MKI's- and that was starting with an existing production AC. HAL has no experience building transports. You really think they can start from scratch and be flying in 2 years?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kams

Its backers see a market of 200 aircraft in India, 150 in Russia and around 100 elsewhere in the world.

I would like to see something from an official source- you don't even give a link, though you've posted this same article in two threads.

As of December 2005, the numbers were India 45, Russia 100. This was from the Indian Defence Minister's trip to Moscow in November, and the deal was supposed to be signed last January.

It wasn't. And every year we the estimated development cost going up $100 Million for each party, and the projected sales seem to going up accordingly to justify the cost increase. Which means the stakes get higher and higher.

How many transports can India buy today for those dollars, with zero risk?

XEROX · 11-16-2006, 16:02 PM

Quote:

How many transports can India buy today for those dollars, with zero risk?

Im sure India can procure many A400M or C-130J Hercules for that amount of $$$

(Hows the fishing going Cassy, its Amit from DTalk a.k.a PJ-10 BrahMos)

highsea · 11-16-2006, 16:28 PM

Hi Amit,

Welcome to WAB!

check your pm.

-CM

kams · 11-16-2006, 17:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

I would like to see something from an official source- you don't even give a link, though you've posted this same article in two threads.

Sorry Highsea, I have no links as this was posted in BR from a subscription only source. I am not even claiming its all accurate. Vivke Rughuvanshi usually does have some good sources.

Quote:

As of December 2005, the numbers were India 45, Russia 100. This was from the Indian Defence Minister's trip to Moscow in November, and the deal was supposed to be signed last January.

It wasn't. And every year we the estimated development cost going up $100 Million for each party, and the projected sales seem to going up accordingly to justify the cost increase. Which means the stakes get higher and higher.

How many transports can India buy today for those dollars, with zero risk?

Are you asking about money spent on development? Not many 15-20?

Highsea, think as an Indian not American. India would like to develop on her own. Going by the history thats not a capability India currently has. Next best solution is Joint Development. Buying an off the shelf product is easiest way out, but India wants to develop her industrial/knowledge base too. So this is less risky than complete indigenous development.

As to the numbers, timeframe we may know in January 2007, when President Putin will be visiting India.

y_raj · 11-26-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

HAL has no experience building transports.

HAL has built the saras which is a light transport aircraft fitted with two turboprops from pratt and whitney. it made its first successful flight in 2004 and will be given safety certificate by next year.

regards,
y raj

highsea · 11-27-2006, 12:48 PM

As I understand it, that was a NAL program (JV with Russia again, the Myasishchev Design Bureau), not HAL. HAL only contributed a little funding?

So how many have been built?

This is from the Hindu (2004):

Quote:

There are disquieting reports that the aircraft has greatly exceeded its intended weight, reducing the payload (passengers plus cargo) it can carry and the range.

A news agency has reported that the prototype was 900 kg heavier than expected; that comes to three-fourths of the maximum payload of 1,200 kg the aircraft ought to be able to carry. Moreover, while the then Union Minister for Science & Technology, Murli Manohar Joshi, stated in Parliament in February 2001 that Saras would be able to fly 1,200 km with 14 passengers, the aircraft's brochure on the NAL website puts its maximum range with that many passengers at 400 km.

Weight reduction therefore has to be top priority. This and any other technical issue thrown up during flight trials will have to be resolved before the aircraft is ready for certification by the Director General of Civil Aviation, possibly in about three years' time.

Saras will then face the challenge of succeeding in the marketplace of civil aviation, withstanding cut-throat competition from aircraft manufacturers abroad. "SARAS will usher in a vibrant civil aircraft industry in the country in the coming years," claims an NAL brochure.

There is a long way to go to reach that goal.

Like I said, HAL has no experience building transports.

11-09-2006, 18:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
joey2 Guest Posts: n/a	Indo-Russo MTA The indo-russian Medium Transport Aircraft as a joint developement programme has been signed already. The requirements will be around 200 to 300 for IAF "45 being first order" and around 100 to 150 for Russia and a lot for export. Here is a video directly from Irsktusk. It will replace the An 12 and An 24 of Indian and Russian Air force and also for export. So far the Video looks amazing pretty cool!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRZ6oZcx8Q8

11-15-2006, 18:21 PM	#3 (permalink)
highsea *Defense Professional* Join Date: 12-10-04 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,478	Well, we've been hearing about this for the last 5 years. So far, nothing has materialized. Russia hasn't even finalized their requirements yet. India is thought to have at the end of last year, but a tender has yet to be issued. Presumably there will be a bidding process, which means there may be other contenders besides the IL-214. Also, there is no Russian turbofan engine in the class, which means some additional investment would be needed. As far the numbers, the feasability study was based on the assumption that India would buy 45 frames and Russia would need 60. An additional 95 frames were identified as potential exports, split between a military and commercial variant, and looking ahead to 2020. Development costs were estimated at $400 Million, not counting the new engine. This was to be split equally. How much has actually been allocated? IOW, the program is yet to be actually launched. No doubt there is a need for some new transports, but who knows what will eventually fill that need. Developing a new AC is not always the best option, especially when we're dealing with a relatively small number of frames. I usually like to see a little more than a CG video before I start popping the champagne corks... __________________ My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

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11-15-2006, 14:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
sukhoi Banished Join Date: 04-21-06 Posts: 109	Looking Awesome to me. This is why Joint-Production should be there between Countires, sepecially Indo-Russia. Joint-Production like MTA can be made according to requirments of both Airforce. Hope there should be the same with the Stealth Aircraft Deal

11-16-2006, 03:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
joey2 Guest Posts: n/a	IMHO the deal has been passed in the parliament. I have to find the exact source. But India had 2 aircraft deal during putins visit. 1> MTA 2> 5th gen PAKFA. We got go ahead on MTA, and declined the PAKFA as we asked for a developement from scratch "atleast 12 years". so a 5th gen thing might happen next year on putins visit...as PAKFA is not really going to be any 5th gen thing. This MTA's requirements has been EVALUATED by IAF and RuAF, then only it has been given go ahead. what makes you guys think IAF didnt know bout the operational capabilities and HAL went ahead? no way!

11-16-2006, 03:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
joey2 Guest Posts: n/a	The date is a bit wrong there, it'll be before 2013. in another article it said first prototype will fly in 2009.

11-16-2006, 16:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
highsea *Defense Professional* Join Date: 12-10-04 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,478	Hi Amit, Welcome to WAB! check your pm. -CM

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