Thread: No decision on direct access to Headley yet: US envoy

Originally Posted by pChan

You missed the part about socialism, the Anti-Americanism we see today is the vestiges of communist thinking.. US & India were in diametrically opposite camps when it came to economics. The American alliance with pakistan was never aimed against India but the soviet union. The pakistanis were smart to pick a camp, India danced around the whole "Non-alignment" joke and when it really needed a power, was forced to choose the soviet-union.

Self-reliance was nothing more than economic isolation. Didn't get India far with that isolation thing did it? India is now actively integrating it's economy with the world. There are certain things that a country needs to be self-reliant in, like food production, defence etc. India has no self-reliance when it comes to defence and ironically green revolution was made possible with help from abroad.

You forget the bunch of communists who have a bust of Stalin in their kolkata headquarters. Most middle class Indians like America courtesy not just Hollywood but the fact that the American system of economics actually works.

Ultimately India chose the soviet camp; India could have chosen the American camp without a single American boot in its soil. Nobody forced India to choose socialism.

1.) Socialism can't be blamed for everything. Infact, Socialism was exactly what India needed, it helped establish the Indian identity. Without socialism, India would've been one huge mess. Socialism played a very large part in burying ethnic and religious divides down below and bringing forth a common goal in uniting all the diverse groups of people.

2.) Self Reliance got India quite far. Infact, India today builds a lot of its own stuff which even most Western countries still don't do individually and have to rely on bigger partners. India's space industry is an excellent example.

3.) India chose the Soviet camp after the '65 war. A war in which the world put sanctions on both countries, but where India's mainly European weapons ran out of ammunition and spares, Pakistan was still being supplied by America through Turkey-Iran and into Pakistan.

4.) We saw the result of the American system of economics very recently. An open market is a good thing, no doubt, but without accountability and moral practices, it is bound to crash. India did good managing the way it allowed its banks to function.

5.) In today's time you cannot compare Russia and America. Russia is an irreplaceable ally of India, and the Russians have done far more for India than anyone else. It is a very good thing to have excellent relations with the Americans, but you're mistaken if you think the Americans can ever replace the Russians.

The US-India relation has been on high since Clinton administration. George Bush concreted that relationship. All of a sudden, like an earthquake of magnitude 10+ the relationship between India and US collapsed for no apparent reasons.

Now US is giving Pakistan the nuclear deals, better than what it signed with India. The announcement of nuclear deal was a big surprise even among the Pakistanis. They never expected that US willingly provide a deal like it signed with India without begging.

Moreover, US is donating a lot of high tech weapons, knowing very well that most of these weapons will not used against Taliban, but will be against India.

Most importantly, US denied the access of David Headley, the man accused of being part of Mumbai Nov 2008 massacre, to India. FBI, CIA didn't allow Indian intelligence to see David Headley, forget the question of questioning this. I feel that CIA/FBI or both, had the preliminary information that such a terrorist attack was going to happen, in which some US citizens and some Jewish citizens were killed.

US is going to involve in the internal issues of India, like the Indus water issues. I strongly feel that, US involvement will deteriorate India-Pakistan relations. The terrorist activities in J&K and inside India have been shot up since this year.

Also, Obama administration wants India to pack off from Afghanistan. India has done a lot to the Afghanistan's rebuilding, by contributing to its infrastructure, hospitals, policing, etc.

I, like many other Indians, am very disappointed, with this sudden change of US relation to Pakistan. Pakistanis have killed Americans inside America as well as outside America. I do not think any other country has damaged US and US citizens more than Pakistan. It has proliferated the Nuclear weapon technology to other countries, including the countries which US feel threat to its of existence. Unfortunately, while US is barking at Iran on nuclear issues, it is going to provide nuclear deals to Pakistan, the country which donated the nuclear secrets to Iran.. What an irony!!!

During Indian PM's visit to Washington, Mr. Obama poured praises to him, and now he stabbed Dr. Singh from behind within 5 months! I feel dejected with this administration's cheating.

Indians in US have a contributed a lot to Obama's election campaign, by contributing money and by activating people. I don't see any particular reasons why Mr. Obama Administration stabbed India from behind. I would say, this is the biggest cheating in present international politics.

What are the reasons for the sudden change in the relation between US and India? Can anyone explain to me the reasons behind these?

I have some questions for you-

1.) Can you explain this comment made in the TIMES OF INDIA by your External Affairs Minister Pranab in 2008?

India Not Against US-Pakistan N-Deal: Pranab -Oct. 11, 2008 The Times of India

"'We believe every country has the right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes,' he said when asked about Islamabad's demand for an India-like nuclear deal with the US."

Once finished with your explanation, would you provide the link which affirms this comment by you-

"Now US is giving Pakistan the nuclear deals, better than what it signed with India. The announcement of nuclear deal was a big surprise even among the Pakistanis. They never expected that US willingly provide a deal like it signed with India without begging."

The reason I ask is because I've already been proved wrong on this thread once by one of your peers. This was a result of intellectual laziness on my part. Unforgiveable in some respects. Nonetheless, I've done an extensive search to see whether, this time, I might have missed some profound, earth-shattering announcement arising from the recent U.S.-Pakistani dialogue. I can find none specifically relating to a nuclear energy deal.

U.S. Announces Aid For Pakistan Power Projects, Skirts N-Deal Issue-March 25, 2010 NETINDIAN

"Asked specifically whether the US was prepared to discuss a civil nuclear deal with Pakistan such as the one it has with India, Ms Clinton skirted the issue.

'We have a broad agenda with many complicated issues like the one you referred to. Discussions are continuing through tomorrow. And while I will not go into details of our bilateral conversations, we’ve said that we will listen to and engage with our Pakistani partners on whatever issues the delegation raises. We’re committed to helping Pakistan meet its real energy needs.'"

Gee. Reads like no such deal yet in place. Your comments seem premature at a minimum thus wrong.

"Unfortunately, while US is barking at Iran on nuclear issues, it is going to provide nuclear deals to Pakistan, the country which donated the nuclear secrets to Iran.. What an irony!!!"

More than simply the U.S. are "barking" at Iran. What's ironic is your claim about a nuclear deal. Whether one eventually comes to past is not important. What might be is how you'd feel about such given your own External Minister Pranab's comments and the absence of fact to support your claim that a nuclear deal HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE BETWEEN THE U.S AND PAKISTAN.

2.) I know that water issues are a touchy subject on your side of the world. Seems that there's a bi-lateral dispute mechanism that's been in accord for some time on the matter. You said-

"US is going to involve in the internal issues of India, like the Indus water issues. I strongly feel that, US involvement will deteriorate India-Pakistan relations."

Here's what THE HINDU reported on March 24, 2010-

Pakistan Must Resolve Water Issues Bilaterally: Hillary-THE HINDU March 24, 2010

"Ms. Clinton added, 'Where there is an agreement, as there is between India and Pakistan on water, with mediation techniques, arbitration built in, it would seem sensible to look to what already exists, to try to resolve any of the bilateral problems between India and Pakistan.'”

How did you reach your above conclusion from this comment made by America's SECSTATE?

3.) I've again searched far and wide looking for some announcement by our government that we would order Indian civil aid organizations to depart from a third party foreign country over which we hold no sovereign authority-Afghanistan. Fascinating, but again, I'll await the link from one of our government officials confirming this comment of yours-

"Also, Obama administration wants India to pack off from Afghanistan. India has done a lot to the Afghanistan's rebuilding, by contributing to its infrastructure, hospitals, policing, etc."

I ask this as I can't find any tangible announcement nor can I imagine a U.S. official presuming we've the authority to order India to do anything contravening bi-lateral agreements reached between the governments of Afghanistan and India.

"I feel that CIA/FBI or both, had the preliminary information that such a terrorist attack was going to happen, in which some US citizens and some Jewish citizens were killed."

I feel you're wrong. Please prove it or I might otherwise presume you slander us out of an innate dislike for my nation. This is a grievous charge you make against my government. I pray you don't do so frivolously. Knowing you wouldn't possibly make such a frivolous claim, I'll look forward to your proof of such beyond simple "feelings" or a retraction would seem fair and expected.

The reason I ask this of you is because all of your above claims seem completely wrong given your own news sources indicating otherwise. That being the case, and with only two posts here to your credit, it seems important that you make as many statements firmly grounded in fact as possible. Even I after 4000 plus posts was reminded of its importance just yesterday by one of your citizens. Rightfully so.

"Moreover, US is donating a lot of high tech weapons, knowing very well that most of these weapons will not used against Taliban, but will be against India."

I beg to differ as, again, you are wrong. Whether these weapons such as F-16s (long in Pakistan's inventory) or AH-1 Cobras (long in Pakistan's inventory) might someday be used against India totally ignores the fact that they are right now being EXTENSIVELY used against the taliban along Pakistan's western borders.

That is a simple fact, sir. I've been particularly careful in my refutation of your claims given that I'd HATE the embarassment of being wrong twice in one thread. I really don't think I am but I'll await your PROOF, particularly that my government was fully aware of an impending attack on Mumbai and did nothing to alert your authorities of such.

I don't think your government has gone on record of making such an accusation. Nonetheless, you have.