Originally Posted by neyzen
Iraq is Hell now?!!!!!!!!! Well, that implies it was haven or at least a normal place to live before i suppose!
Mass murder of Kurds and Shiites, rape and torture on whim of Saddam or any of his cronies etc. was normal?? Haven?????
At least if an American soldier commits a crime, he is tried and punished if found guilty. But before occupation there was no one to try those bastards who did those crimes; and they wore uniforms too.
For this humanoid creature named Samira Jassim, who certainly is not human, i wish they apply the Islamic punishment on her too - stoning. Or an ant-hill??? These are not possible I suppose any more. Why? Well there's USA involved and the humanitarians would not let USA approve any this sort of punishment.
Last edited by jackprince; 03 Mar 09, at 11:39.
jackprince For me it was savageness. If there is such need... what for is UN? Please don't try to justify what happened in Iraq and tell us in which cases you would welcome "rescuer angels" like US Army to your country? If you welcome.. what can they do? descending your country's natural resources, playing with ethnic/religious structure, causing too many civilian deaths during war conditions...? What do they allow?
Were still awaiting a reply on the 4000 rape allegation but as we expect no validity will be fourthcoming. Because there is no validity to your claims! Only bullshit!
Furthermore:
1) Name one natural resource the US has touched since being in Iraq? You cant. We dont get any oil, minerals, water or anything of the sort and we know that you cannot prove it nor can anyone else because it has not happened. Iraq invited all countries to participate in their oil reform programs.
Shall we begin to name the improvements made to their lives? Schools,Roads,Hospitals,Water treatment,sewer treatment, cultural enhancements etc?
2) Name one religious structure the US has changed since being in Iraq? Once again you cant. The only thing the US has done is to provide protection to the ethnic minorities. Not one US official or officer sits on the government council nor influences their elections, campaigns or other.
3) Name where we have caused uber civilian casualties? We are not responsible for car bombs, suicide bombers in markets, police stations, public gatherings, religious apathy or any other resembelence therof. You can look right at the problem if you can possibly see beyound your baseless accusations its called extremeists like the idiots in the above posted artice that started the thread.
*Your posted allegations are worthless and unjustified. You sir dont know your ass from a hole in the ground and I suspect either contempt for US forces or just plain out sour grapes due to being very uneducated on the subject at hand.
Small minds=Small world.And its quite obvious that you live in a hole and see exactly what you want to see not the reality of what is Iraq today.
Last edited by Dreadnought; 03 Mar 09, at 14:31.
Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.
neyzen I'm not supporting the crimes committed by U.S. soldiers and in deed there were plenty atrocity they did. But I know for sure the US govt. DO NOT support their acts, and they do punish the criminals. Could you say the same about the former regime?
This war on Iraq was needed a loooong time ago. Had it been completed during the first gulf war there would have plenty more innocent people who would have lived. Civilian death during a war and after a war is sad but fact of the world. But the trigger-happiness of US Soldiers isn't acceptable. But when children and women started blowing themselves to kill soldiers, it is very natural to be weary. Don't forget the men under the uniform are men still and most of them didn't realize the actual trauma of being a soldier on guard duty on a hostile land.
I would have welcomed an Angel like USA had my country been in clutches of same kind of dictators like Saddam. For one thing, US is always the better evil than Saddam, at least USA bleeds when the NGOs bite.
'USA descended on Iraq's natural resources' is the sentiment I've heard so many times since the beginning of Iraq war. USA monopolized the the oil-export of Iraq... may be true i suppose. But USA is the country who lost soldiers on Iraq soil, expended billions of Dollar - it is very rational to assume that they would not allow other parties who didn't sweat to take charge of oil-export. And by the way what would Iraq do with it's oil reserve? Sell I suppose and USA is in deed buying - not taking it for free.
A strong ethnic/religious structure won't fall or get damaged by anybody's 'playing', if it does it never was a strong one. India has been invaded by so many and so many times; but it still retains it's culture strongly - yes it was not what it was before, it eloved and got better mostly. What outside meddling could is bring changes in the culture. But change is the way of life as well as anything. Sometimes change comes for better and sometimes for worse. The presence of US can only help some people who might not want to be chained to the 'culture' - whereas the withdrawal of US means Iran'd certainly get the hold - can you say that then anybody getting a free opinion? When you have start dictating what people should or shouldn't do regrading the custom, culture or religion - it means the way they already are not acceptable by most.
I see that you are from Turkey. I heard that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was not tooo popular among certain part of Turkish people when he started his revolution. It is always so. There always is several opinion and believers regarding a matter as big as change of regime and in modern era due to spread of weapons and tech. and media, must not forget the media, very easy to show their 'grievance' - whether that is justified or not.
How many common people do you think actually gives a sh*t whether it is US or Iran as long as they don't get blown up or don't get 'stonned'?
And "what for is UN?" This is the only thing i agree with you. Since the day I learned there's UN, i still couldn't figure out what for is UN???!!!!!!!! It hardly ever does anything!!! Even if it tries to do something, there's always a veto from either Russia, USA or somebody else. I'm not talking about Iraq only, just look at Africa - Congo, Sierra Leon, Uganda, Bosnia etc to name a few - UN is either ineffective or too late. UN is a place of wrist slapping bureaucrats who likes to be impotent - sorry important.
Last edited by jackprince; 03 Mar 09, at 15:10.
You're not going to get a response because I was tired of his unengaging posting, i.e., post some claim without sourcing it and then never responding to members requests to validate the claim. He got banished for this trolling.
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3
You'll have to excuse me Sir, I do tend to get rather bent when somebody posts baseless allegations upon US troops without any understanding of what infraction they may actually be guilty of. I know they are not all angels and I know thats its impossible for all to be angels given their circumstances,experiences and surroundings. They may not be exactly angels but I do know for fact they are certainly not murderers or rapists nor savages nor theives. If anything they are humanitarians who have left their families, loved ones and country behind to go and defend and protect people they dont even know from the evils of not only religious extremeism but such things that extremism uses as tools to weild such theories using things such as above murder,rape,robbery in order to influence others to joining their doomed cause or for the killing of others through suicide bombings etc.
Not even a fraction could I state that I know for the thousands of troops sent there but for a few of them they are my friends and I can dam sure vouge that they are some of the most upstanding family men and women who wouldnt dream of going to such a place leaving all they know,love and care for behind if it were not for a noble cause. I see our troops in many different aspects and different phases of their training and if there is one thing I can state clearly and without hesitation is this
"They certainly are the finest dam bunch of men and women I have ever seen don the uniform of the United States Military beit Army,Navy,Air Force,Marines,National Guard,Coast Guard or other Auxilliary. BAR NONE!
Last edited by Dreadnought; 03 Mar 09, at 16:03.
Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.
I have 2 question
1) Do you realy think, that occupation (including American) troops never commit any crimes?
2) What is more probable
a) rape of 80 women was organized in the name of jihad to make them suicide bombers OR
b) some Iraqi / occupant investigator forced someone to make such confession?
1) Define the crimes you are looking for. Nobody is perfect but to attempt to hang the above allegations on US troops is certainly unfounded, undeserving and un-necessary and there is zero proof to back his assertions. That is unless you can show other and I dont mean propaghanda.
2) How would you define the sudden rise of female suicide bombers and why was this not happeneing for the first years of occupation. They attacked in every other way why not this one as well? Judging by the extremeists actions this was certainly not above their bar nor far from their reach.
3) Why would an Iraqi investigator want some woman to make such claims? What do they have to gain? They have peace to loose so there must be something to gain if you have something to loose. Common sense theory.
Last edited by Dreadnought; 03 Mar 09, at 17:18.
Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.
U.S. soldiers are not above doing the crimes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6152118.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_prison_abuse_scandal
But, and there is a biiiiig BUT, it DOES NOT say that it is anyways approved by the authority; that is why they are tried and punished. Even in the scandal regarding the humaliating photoshoot, there's a court martial going on.
It doesn't prove that US soldiers posted in Iraq are all savages. It proves there are beasts hiding among the human. Also, it might prove that the standard of recruiting might have also fallen. In some thread here I might have read that now people with criminal past are now allowed to join armed forces.
But this incedents are not rule, but the exceptions - quite sad and cruel but exception; and as far I know not unique too if we see the history. Blaming and generalising US troops by some sh*theads' vile action is stupid. Same as claiming every Muslim with a beard is taliban supporter.
US troops are not above committing crimes. But you must look at the number of US troops (150k) plus their rotation, which brings the number of personel served in the theater to maybe half a million, against the number of actual crimes committed. It's a remarkably small number.
Those who have committed crimes will face harsh military justice. The most serious crimes are punishable by death.
That's what makes us different than certain group of people who don't punish their criminals.
That is also a possibility. It is up to the Iraqis to ensure a fair judicial system. We cannot run their country for them.
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
Apart from the fact that this is incredibly heinous and probably deserves stoning by death for this women and her rapist "assistants", is not the whole thing somewhat counterproductive?
I would think that raping some one and then putting arms/ explosives in their possession makes this woman vulnerable as a target.
I want to be a rebel and question your banning, but I can't find any reason to. Your post is brutal dude, you clearly don't speak for the rest of our respectful Turkish members.
the same thing was in Chechnya. Women lost their men, and after years of despair (no husbands, no children and no future) they became suicide bombers2) How would you define the sudden rise of female suicide bombers and why was this not happeneing for the first years of occupation. They attacked in every other way why not this one as well? Judging by the extremeists actions this was certainly not above their bar nor far from their reach.
there is much to gain: 1) agitprop against sick insurgents; 2) agitprop for Iraqi-American relationships; 3) agitprop for smart Iraqi investigators and so on.3) Why would an Iraqi investigator want some woman to make such claims? What do they have to gain? They have peace to loose so there must be something to gain if you have something to loose. Common sense theory.
The thing is 1) i have never heard about such kind of crimes (in the history) and 2) i know enough about methods of counter-insurgency guys.
Last edited by Zampolit; 04 Mar 09, at 08:33.
The US does not actively combat missionary activity of its forces' members, a fact rather widely criticized both in Iraq and upper US forces circles.
... that are actually charged.
Not that i support certain statements above, but there are petty crimes commonly overlooked in "times of war". Rape is not one of them.
There are currently afaik only nine US soldiers on death row in Leavenworth, and the last execution there i'm aware of was almost 50 years ago, for the rape and attempted murder of an 11yo Austrian girl.
I'm not aware of any even possible capital punishment sentences in recent premediated murder or rape cases in the US Military Justice system, life in prison is usually stated as the maximum possible sentence.
"You" occupied it. It's "your" legal responsibility, in full, to ensure a fair judicial system and a "working country".
Pfft, it's an easy mind game. A victim is first befriended by the woman, then raped by a "stranger", then a "solution to her shame" is offered and strongly suggested by her "friend".I would think that raping some one and then putting arms/ explosives in their possession makes this woman vulnerable as a target.
This is a small part of it, but the biggest reason for the increase is that the effectiveness of attacks by males plummeted because juicy targets had appropriate security standoff. Males couldn't get close enough, so new tactics had to be tried.
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3
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