Thread: Why Don't Iraqis Stop at Roadblocks?

Originally Posted by Triple C

It just hit me how endemic it is that Iraqi drivers with their whole family in car ignores warnings to stop by US troops and gets shot. The American soldiers who related those stories are all confounded by what will make a guy drive straight towards heavily armed man pointing rifles at him and screaming on the top of their lunges.

Did Saddam's cops and troops routinely point rifles at people by the way of hello?

I don't know what specifically triggered this, but think about it.

1. Can you hear someone screaming at you from 100-200m away when you are driving in your car at 20-30mph? Do you play your radio in the car? If the windows are open, does the "wind" rush in and create ambient noise?

2. If you hear shots fired, what is your natural instinct? Is it to stop the car or will there be an adrenaline rush and step on the gas? How do you determine where the shots came from? What's to say that it's not a warning shot from a road checkpoint and instead is from insurgents/terrorists trolling for Shia/Sunni and are using the checkpoint as a chokepoint for an ambush of their hated rival? What's your incentive now?

3. The # of cars in Iraq is 3x that of 2003. That means 2/3rds of drivers on the road are essentially new drivers. There's not a drivers' ed program like what you see in the States (and I assume elsewhere in the developed world). So you've got sh!tty drivers without experience added in the mix.

4. There's a structural issue to in how American checkpoints are/were setup. Concertina wire is very effective in getting wrapped in axles and arresting forward progress. It's also tough to identify at a distance and so isn't an effective deterrent. Big rocks, while looking ghetto, are an effective deterrent. Which ones can you carry around with you on vehicles easier, and so which ones were more likely to be used?

There's a lot of factors that come into play here, and what seems like common sense to the person holding the gun really isn't necessarily common sense.

Thank you for clarifying. That would make sense. The solider who wrote about this issue says that the problem his platoon had is that they cannot broadcast the position of the roadblock because that would warn whatever insurgents they are trying to find to go arround it, but making their roadblock too covert and people won't be able to see it.

I am going to presume that if a build to counter this had been found, that will be OPSEC. Thanks for answering.

Originally Posted by Triple C

Thank you for clarifying. That would make sense. The solider who wrote about this issue says that the problem his platoon had is that they cannot broadcast the position of the roadblock because that would warn whatever insurgents they are trying to find to go arround it, but making their roadblock too covert and people won't be able to see it.

I am going to presume that if a build to counter this had been found, that will be OPSEC. Thanks for answering.

Here's what I (you) bought for my unit way back in 2004 as one means to counter this problem. Nothing says stop like a big green laser in your chest where you can see the source of the laser and immediately identify that your continued driving along the path is unwarranted.

http://www.bemeyers.com/index.php?op...id=1&Itemid=53

Typically, you don't run into many issues about speeding into roadblocks during the day - it's nighttime, and so a visible laser is all the more effective then.

Upon re-reading my post, hopefully my "think about it" comment didn't come off too gruff - I think most soldiers approach the problem thinking "if I knew they had a gun, I'd stop," but if you don't see the checkpoint, chances are you don't know they have a gun. You have to step outside your role to think about it more clearly.

Shek,

The piece of info about most problems at checkpoints being at night also played into a thought of mine - that the people in the cars don't know who is manning the checkpoint.

Do we have any evidence of people being concerned that insurgents might be setting up roadblocks or even posing as soldiers?

i once read that under Saddam driving slow, espiacially near government buildings or military bases could get you into real trouble because the dictators henchmen assumed that you might be spying on them. Which lead to everyone to drive fast in those areas to away from it and not to cause suspicion. If true, might be rather hard to get rid of such habits and switch into the exact opposite.

Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen

i once read that under Saddam driving slow, espiacially near government buildings or military bases could get you into real trouble because the dictators henchmen assumed that you might be spying on them. Which lead to everyone to drive fast in those areas to away from it and not to cause suspicion. If true, might be rather hard to get rid of such habits and switch into the exact opposite.

Beat me to it Tarek ,,old habits die hard ,, but some of the points made here are all contributing factors in to the reasons for not stopping .

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Shek,

The piece of info about most problems at checkpoints being at night also played into a thought of mine - that the people in the cars don't know who is manning the checkpoint.

Do we have any evidence of people being concerned that insurgents might be setting up roadblocks or even posing as soldiers?

Absolutely. During the height of the sectarian violence, the quickest way to death was to be stopped by a Sunni (AQI) or Shia (mostly Mahdi) death squad and have the wrong ID. Iraqis began to carry Shia and Sunni ID cards and then had to make a decision which one to use when stopped.

Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen

i once read that under Saddam driving slow, espiacially near government buildings or military bases could get you into real trouble because the dictators henchmen assumed that you might be spying on them. Which lead to everyone to drive fast in those areas to away from it and not to cause suspicion. If true, might be rather hard to get rid of such habits and switch into the exact opposite.

This was true as well, although the checkpoints referred to here are out on regular roads.

Originally Posted by Shek

I don't know what specifically triggered this, but think about it.

1. Can you hear someone screaming at you from 100-200m away when you are driving in your car at 20-30mph? Do you play your radio in the car? If the windows are open, does the "wind" rush in and create ambient noise?

2. If you hear shots fired, what is your natural instinct? Is it to stop the car or will there be an adrenaline rush and step on the gas? How do you determine where the shots came from? What's to say that it's not a warning shot from a road checkpoint and instead is from insurgents/terrorists trolling for Shia/Sunni and are using the checkpoint as a chokepoint for an ambush of their hated rival? What's your incentive now?

3. The # of cars in Iraq is 3x that of 2003. That means 2/3rds of drivers on the road are essentially new drivers. There's not a drivers' ed program like what you see in the States (and I assume elsewhere in the developed world). So you've got sh!tty drivers without experience added in the mix.

4. There's a structural issue to in how American checkpoints are/were setup. Concertina wire is very effective in getting wrapped in axles and arresting forward progress. It's also tough to identify at a distance and so isn't an effective deterrent. Big rocks, while looking ghetto, are an effective deterrent. Which ones can you carry around with you on vehicles easier, and so which ones were more likely to be used?

There's a lot of factors that come into play here, and what seems like common sense to the person holding the gun really isn't necessarily common sense.

Major,

Can the military use large "STOP"/ "SLOW" signs alongwith flashing lights (like they do to control traffic here on US roads)? I have also seen barriers that can be lowered/ raised. Would that not be more effective?

Originally Posted by antimony

Major,

Can the military use large "STOP"/ "SLOW" signs alongwith flashing lights (like they do to control traffic here on US roads)? I have also seen barriers that can be lowered/ raised. Would that not be more effective?

Signs can be part of the package, although it's also true that anything you put out means that someone has to go and recover it. It creates a potential sniper target.

As far as barriers go, we're talking about "flash" checkpoints. You randomly set up checkpoints so that they catch bad guys unaware. It's tough in urban geography to set up a checkpoint that you can't evade, and so you can't depend (and don't want to necessarily commit yourself to a static checkpoint where you could deploy in-ground barriers that can be lowered/raised).

Originally Posted by Shek

Signs can be part of the package, although it's also true that anything you put out means that someone has to go and recover it. It creates a potential sniper target.

As far as barriers go, we're talking about "flash" checkpoints. You randomly set up checkpoints so that they catch bad guys unaware. It's tough in urban geography to set up a checkpoint that you can't evade, and so you can't depend (and don't want to necessarily commit yourself to a static checkpoint where you could deploy in-ground barriers that can be lowered/raised).

See, that's what comes from a civilian POV in a war zone; thanks for clearing that up

Originally Posted by antimony

See, that's what comes from a civilian POV in a war zone; thanks for clearing that up

I'm not sure of the exact procedures, but this exact subject received intense scrutiny back in 2006 when then LTG Chiarelli was the MNC-I commander - the unintentional deaths of Iraqi non-combatants in vehicles was hurting the mission because of the backlash from them. When I was in Iraq, I only recall one death, and it was from a drunk driver that crashed into the rear of a 20-ton Stryker that was moving at about 5mph doing an IED sweep. Needless to say, the 20-ton Stryker won and the 1-ton car lost. We mounted reflective tape in response (not that it would have mattered in this case, but it was an appropriate response in case another driver that wasn't impaired had trouble seeing a Stryker at night).

Snap VCPs' (Vehicle Check-Points), were an art in which the British Army perfected in N. Ireland. Stop, set-up quickly using hand carried Road Signage asking vehicles to stop at the next sign and await being called forward, if a vehicle continues past that sign pull the Caltrops across the road and approach said vehicle with caution.

Originally Posted by Shek

It's tough in urban geography to set up a checkpoint that you can't evade, and so you can't depend (and don't want to necessarily commit yourself to a static checkpoint where you could deploy in-ground barriers that can be lowered/raised).

Actually, it's fairly easy. There are mobile prepped run-over barriers available that raise up within seconds to slash the tires of an incoming hostile car (sometimes spring-activated, but more usually easily moving up and down on pneumatics or similar on the press button).
Ponds, the PMC doing the outer security work for the US Forces in Germany uses them in some places (mostly entrances to housing areas that are not permanently in use, and hence do not warrant the cost of a permanent barrier system, or a full-blown roadblock/check tent).
The difficulty would be primarily in deploying these systems in such a way as to channel all traffic over it, but that could be done by deploying some simple concrete barriers from a truck.